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Concorded and sec status lost, why?

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Devoyd
A Murder Of Crows.
Homicidal Tendencies.
#41 - 2012-04-27 17:34:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Devoyd
Sirinda wrote:
Also, he didn't get the "You're about to commit a crime" dialogue even though he had the option for it active. So that is a bug.


This.

Confirmed.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2012-04-27 17:38:42 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Potrondal Morrison wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Schalac wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Posting to confirm that this is indeed a bug and we are looking into the cause of it now. More information to follow.

I posted a petition over a week ago now about concord warnings not showing up when you were about to unknowingly commit a crime. Still didn't recieve a message or anything on it, maybe you guys need to check your logs a little faster.

Perhaps a bug report would have been more effective than a petition.



A bug report wont get your sec status back up, its already been confirmed a bug, CCP should reimburse the status drop.


Quite correct that a bug report would be the way to get this info to development. Petitions go to GMs.

Notwithstanding that the issue you are describing and this issue are separate, as this issue has never arisen in the game before now (nor could it have, really, without a crazy chain of coincidence happening). The Crimewatch system has never been stressed with this many edge cases and mitigating factors before and we will endeavour to react quickly in identifying and resolving issues as they arise.

You're welcome! Glad we could help.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Sentinel Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2012-04-27 17:38:45 UTC
I'm very happy to hear this is a bug, and not a case of "The Logs, they show nothing." :)

Annoying as it may be, I fully understand how these issues could have arisin.. Stress Tests on SiSi take place in null, So I doubt there has been nearly as much testing on TiDI and it's interactions with Crimewatch/Concord/etc.

Might be worth, in the future, moving stress tests alternating between Null, Low, and Highsec, to help detect any future issues.
D3F4ULT
#44 - 2012-04-27 17:42:35 UTC
Can't wait till FanFest 2013 to see the graphs and then a comparison graph on how you guys fixed everything.

"Bow down before the one you serve, you're going to get what you deserve"
adam smash
Department of Gub'nent Welfare
Harkonnen Federation
#45 - 2012-04-27 17:47:09 UTC
Good thing they are putting out all these new dumb expansions when you have bugs that can cause sec + ship lose... LOL.

Failing for 2 years so far CCP

Still aint fixed the lag... calling lag a feature is not fixing it and now lul....

EVERYONE SHOULD PETITION FOR REPLACEMENT HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA Load up that petition system really well.
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-04-27 17:54:50 UTC
adam smash wrote:
Good thing they are putting out all these new dumb expansions when you have bugs that can cause sec + ship lose... LOL.

Failing for 2 years so far CCP

Still aint fixed the lag... calling lag a feature is not fixing it and now lul....

EVERYONE SHOULD PETITION FOR REPLACEMENT HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA Load up that petition system really well.


Let me tell you about those 15 times in 2009 I jumped through a gate, all was black for 30-45 min, so I logged to find I was DEAD.

Or the times when my ship was killed 4 hours AFTER I logged off.

Or when someone managed to lose a whole fleet because no mods would activate, could not warp out and no ships disappeared until DT and all was scanned down and killed by Evil Thugs crew?



If you do NOT intend to lose your ship, dock up.
Fleet battles with more than 300 people have ALWAYS been fought WITH the X-Factor.
This is a battle of 2000+ people, so, count on the X-Factors, and prepare to die if you open fire on anything.


Working as intended, but better than it ever has in the past.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#47 - 2012-04-27 17:56:39 UTC
Sentinel Smith wrote:
I'm very happy to hear this is a bug, and not a case of "The Logs, they show nothing." :)

Annoying as it may be, I fully understand how these issues could have arisin.. Stress Tests on SiSi take place in null, So I doubt there has been nearly as much testing on TiDI and it's interactions with Crimewatch/Concord/etc.

Might be worth, in the future, moving stress tests alternating between Null, Low, and Highsec, to help detect any future issues.


There has been plenty of testing, but replicating this particular scenario (which would be best described as an edge case) and then finding the defect (also an edge case) while also replicating all other possible edge cases would be a massive waste of time and resources and frankly almost impossible to do. No-one tests like that because of the wasteful nature of the testing, so you must account for the fact that edge cases arise, and if they are severe enough they get fixed at a high priority. The chance of finding this bug would be the loose equivalent of finding a needle in a haystack which only appears when you are with three friends all performing an unrehearsed dance routine in a particular order.

When you say stress testing, I believe you are referring to mass testing, which only accounts for a tiny portion of our QA efforts and needs to cover a wide variety of topics each time - usually newer ones. For proper stress testing we use different techniques but none would have the individual manpower capable of finding a defect like this with any degree of confidence to make it worthwhile.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#48 - 2012-04-27 18:02:34 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Sentinel Smith wrote:
I'm very happy to hear this is a bug, and not a case of "The Logs, they show nothing." :)

Annoying as it may be, I fully understand how these issues could have arisin.. Stress Tests on SiSi take place in null, So I doubt there has been nearly as much testing on TiDI and it's interactions with Crimewatch/Concord/etc.

Might be worth, in the future, moving stress tests alternating between Null, Low, and Highsec, to help detect any future issues.


There has been plenty of testing, but replicating this particular scenario (which would be best described as an edge case) and then finding the defect (also an edge case) while also replicating all other possible edge cases would be a massive waste of time and resources and frankly almost impossible to do. No-one tests like that because of the wasteful nature of the testing, so you must account for the fact that edge cases arise, and if they are severe enough they get fixed at a high priority. The chance of finding this bug would be the loose equivalent of finding a needle in a haystack which only appears when you are with three friends all performing an unrehearsed dance routine in a particular order.

When you say stress testing, I believe you are referring to mass testing, which only accounts for a tiny portion of our QA efforts and needs to cover a wide variety of topics each time - usually newer ones. For proper stress testing we use different techniques but none would have the individual manpower capable of finding a defect like this with any degree of confidence to make it worthwhile.


So, again - you're welcome. Lol

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2012-04-27 18:02:55 UTC
It seems that even CONCORD wants to kill people in Jita.
Tractus Vesica
Helghast Empire
#50 - 2012-04-27 18:04:20 UTC
Same problem here, made another thread about it here.

Other thread

But this one deserves the attention as it is larger. I'm not a fan of losing around 70 mil in ships and 1.1 in Sec. status due to an overview screw up.

Best example I have is here.

Really? We all threw ships away for a Kestrel?

Excelling in all things terrible.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#51 - 2012-04-27 18:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
CCP Goliath wrote:


There has been plenty of testing, but replicating this particular scenario (which would be best described as an edge case) and then finding the defect (also an edge case) while also replicating all other possible edge cases would be a massive waste of time and resources and frankly almost impossible to do.


Pretty sure you've had plenty of notice that this particular edge case was coming. I'm also pretty sure that you should have realized this particular edge case would have a major impact on the game.

I have to ask myself then, why was this particular edge case not thoroughly tested before it was too late?

I have my suspicions as to why, but I don't need any more of my posts deleted today so I'll just keep them to myself.

Mr Epeen Cool
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#52 - 2012-04-27 18:08:11 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:

The chance of finding this bug would be the loose equivalent of finding a needle in a haystack which only appears when you are with three friends all performing an unrehearsed dance routine in a particular order.

When you say stress testing, I believe you are referring to mass testing, which only accounts for a tiny portion of our QA efforts and needs to cover a wide variety of topics each time - usually newer ones. For proper stress testing we use different techniques but none would have the individual manpower capable of finding a defect like this with any degree of confidence to make it worthwhile.

Confirming that systems boundry-conditions testing and validation is a massive PITA, and cannot, no matter how many resources you throw at it, ever account for every possibility.

Hell, you're lucky to get 95% of the more common possiblites, most times. I'd say CCP has done their work very well.
no doubt, they'll be going over the logs with a magnifying glass for months after Jita smoulders out.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#53 - 2012-04-27 18:16:03 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:


There has been plenty of testing, but replicating this particular scenario (which would be best described as an edge case) and then finding the defect (also an edge case) while also replicating all other possible edge cases would be a massive waste of time and resources and frankly almost impossible to do.


Pretty sure you've had plenty of notice that this particular edge case was coming. I'm also pretty sure that you should have realized this particular edge case would have a major impact on the game.

I have to ask myself then, why was this particular edge case not thoroughly tested before it was too late?

I have my suspicions as to why, but I don't need any more of my posts deleted today so I'll just keep them to myself.

Mr Epeen Cool


You're using "edge case" in the wrong context twice there, also we don't test based around specific player driven events, we test based on professionally built, planned test cases. It's not like someone goes "hey Goons are going to be in Jita next week, let's try recreating it on a tiny scale on Sisi to see if we hit anything". That would be, as I have said, a massive waste of time.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Sverige Pahis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-04-27 18:19:43 UTC
Forget bugs, they're all fine and all but why was my post where I berated that terrible catalyst fit get deleted without warning?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#55 - 2012-04-27 18:22:22 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
You're using "edge case" in the wrong context twice there, also we don't test based around specific player driven events, we test based on professionally built, planned test cases. It's not like someone goes "hey Goons are going to be in Jita next week, let's try recreating it on a tiny scale on Sisi to see if we hit anything". That would be, as I have said, a massive waste of time.

How would a tiny scale "2000 character lag-fest in jita" even work? Can you artificially stress the server to that kind of extent?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#56 - 2012-04-27 18:23:06 UTC
The issue should now be fixed, but please keep reports/petitions/BRs coming if things go awry again.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#57 - 2012-04-27 18:23:47 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
You're using "edge case" in the wrong context twice there, also we don't test based around specific player driven events, we test based on professionally built, planned test cases. It's not like someone goes "hey Goons are going to be in Jita next week, let's try recreating it on a tiny scale on Sisi to see if we hit anything". That would be, as I have said, a massive waste of time.

How would a tiny scale "2000 character lag-fest in jita" even work? Can you artificially stress the server to that kind of extent?


Yes we can automate that kind of scale, but it wouldn't be representative or controllable enough to find this issue.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Blobber NL
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-04-27 18:25:53 UTC
Sirinda wrote:
Xython wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Posting to confirm that this is indeed a bug and we are looking into the cause of it now. More information to follow.


No, it's not. The Goon he attacked was not an outlaw and he was not wardeced. He attacked a random player unprovoked and got Concorded for his trouble, just like he should have.


That part is working as intended. What's not working as intended is pods still being flashy red after the ship kill, implying to everyone that they can be shot at without incurring a GCC.

Also, he didn't get the "You're about to commit a crime" dialogue even though he had the option for it active. So that is a bug.


Yeah got the same thingy, now i have a sec status of -1.6 -.-
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#59 - 2012-04-27 18:26:19 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:


You're using "edge case" in the wrong context twice there, also we don't test based around specific player driven events, we test based on professionally built, planned test cases. It's not like someone goes "hey Goons are going to be in Jita next week, let's try recreating it on a tiny scale on Sisi to see if we hit anything". That would be, as I have said, a massive waste of time.


How much of a waste of time is it going to be when all the petitions for reimbursement of ships because you failed to see the inevitable come rolling in?

Better to fix a problem before it happens. Less manpower wasted.

Mr Epeen Cool
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#60 - 2012-04-27 18:28:33 UTC
i m curious, why is the issue caused exactly? any technical details?