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Using damage specific type drones worthwhile?
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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#21 - 2012-04-27 14:45:23 UTC
In addition to the above, slow (e.g. Gallente) drones have the same problem that blasterboats do in missions. You lose a shitload of DPS waiting for drones to move between targets. Caldari/Minmatar drones are deceptively good by virtue of their speed.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#22 - 2012-04-27 14:57:38 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
In addition to the above, slow (e.g. Gallente) drones have the same problem that blasterboats do in missions. You lose a shitload of DPS waiting for drones to move between targets. Caldari/Minmatar drones are deceptively good by virtue of their speed.


Im a big fan of mini drones when it comes to PvP, but that's mostly because im a huge fan of small gangs, you never know when that Dramiel/DareDevil is gonna come by and try to separate some one from a group, every second counts when it comes to frigate warfare.
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-04-27 15:20:38 UTC
Mission specific drones are good if you want to min/max (but be careful with maths here, dmg modifier/target resists are very important).

However, Gal drones will get the job done if your not that into min/maxing.

Sums up to: If you want all arround, use gal. If you want a bit more it's gal/min.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#24 - 2012-04-27 15:23:40 UTC
Again it devolves to "No it's this" and "No it's that".

Thread is indeed phail after all.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Orlacc
#25 - 2012-04-27 15:42:47 UTC
Drones are weapons. Do you HAVE to use rat specific? No.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-04-27 15:58:37 UTC
For spreadsheets in space you would have figured that at least one person would have guessed the correct answer . . .

The common misconception that Gallente drones are "best" is easily proven wrong by simple spreadsheet maths . . .

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgRAtwYqOheEdHExYUF6N3RUeFdIdnlKZU1FRGVDSXc


-FM

Assumptions . . .
Using 5 T2 Large Drones
Shooting at Battleships with 10K hit points
Ship resistances average from http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php
Distance Drones Travel between Battleships - 30KM
Max drone skills
Flying a Drone Boat (domi, Ishtar, Gila, Rattler)
I did not take into account drone tracking, so the faster drones will deal more damage on average and be better against smaller targets


Summary . . .
Serpentis/Gurista - Use Wasp II
Angel - Use Berserker II
Blood/Sansha/Rouge Drone - Praetor II / Ogre II are about a toss up. Praetor II have better tracking and faster speed so they will probably work out better in real life


If you are only going to carry one drone type for missions against all types of enemies
Ogre II
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#27 - 2012-04-27 16:08:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Again it devolves to "No it's this" and "No it's that".

Thread is indeed phail after all.


Ok, here's some math. Highest mission Sansha resist profile from chruker appears to be .49 EM/.59 thermal. When we take in to account the 1.38 vs. 1.92 damage mod on EM and thermal drones, we do something like this:

(1-.49)*1.38 = .704
(1-.59)*1.92 = .787

Gallente drones come out ahead (by 10%, which is within margin of travel time).

On a more typical target for drones (elite frigate, 64/72 split) the paper split is larger, but the math comes out thus:

(1-.64)*1.38 = .497
(1-.72)*1.92 = .538

Gallente drones come out ahead by 7.6%, still within the margin, but still doing better damage.

So no, EM drones aren't needed against Sansha rats. Angel non-elite frigates are a different story.

Edit: the answer directly above is also solid. I'm not claiming that the numbers in this post show anything other than that EM and thermal damage are comparable against Sansha mission rats and that there is no reason per se to train Amarr Drone Specialization just to overcome their resistance. I happen to have them all to 4 and have tried non-sentry Amarr drones -- and wasn't generally impressed. But I didn't run time trials and don't plan to.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#28 - 2012-04-27 23:56:14 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
For spreadsheets in space you would have figured that at least one person would have guessed the correct answer . . .

The common misconception that Gallente drones are "best" is easily proven wrong by simple spreadsheet maths . . .

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgRAtwYqOheEdHExYUF6N3RUeFdIdnlKZU1FRGVDSXc


-FM

Assumptions . . .
Using 5 T2 Large Drones
Shooting at Battleships with 10K hit points
Ship resistances average from http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php
Distance Drones Travel between Battleships - 30KM
Max drone skills
Flying a Drone Boat (domi, Ishtar, Gila, Rattler)
I did not take into account drone tracking, so the faster drones will deal more damage on average and be better against smaller targets


Summary . . .
Serpentis/Gurista - Use Wasp II
Angel - Use Berserker II
Blood/Sansha/Rouge Drone - Praetor II / Ogre II are about a toss up. Praetor II have better tracking and faster speed so they will probably work out better in real life


If you are only going to carry one drone type for missions against all types of enemies
Ogre II











pretty awesome answer, im impressed by the detail, proof and facts to back your opinion up.

I will definitely be testing Small mini drones against small Amarr drones and Caldari small drones.

Im thinking of another factor, be it not even worth to mention but, when one of my drones starts taking damage, I call it back, the Mini drones may have that added advantage, as they would make it back faster, and the slowest drones would have the biggest disadvantage.
Nicolai Xperte
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-04-28 01:32:00 UTC
i usually carry 10 hob II's 10 warrior II's pretty much covers any mission i do.

I don't always bring out my Absolution.

But when I do it makes the Blue's rage, lol.
Arth Ostus
The Squirrel Academy
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#30 - 2012-04-28 01:41:58 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
For spreadsheets in space you would have figured that at least one person would have guessed the correct answer . . .

The common misconception that Gallente drones are "best" is easily proven wrong by simple spreadsheet maths . . .

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgRAtwYqOheEdHExYUF6N3RUeFdIdnlKZU1FRGVDSXc


-FM

Assumptions . . .
Using 5 T2 Large Drones
Shooting at Battleships with 10K hit points
Ship resistances average from http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php
Distance Drones Travel between Battleships - 30KM
Max drone skills
Flying a Drone Boat (domi, Ishtar, Gila, Rattler)
I did not take into account drone tracking, so the faster drones will deal more damage on average and be better against smaller targets


Summary . . .
Serpentis/Gurista - Use Wasp II
Angel - Use Berserker II
Blood/Sansha/Rouge Drone - Praetor II / Ogre II are about a toss up. Praetor II have better tracking and faster speed so they will probably work out better in real life


If you are only going to carry one drone type for missions against all types of enemies
Ogre II




While generally I agree with most of this, it does make some bold assumptions and the real answer is a lot more complicated, there aren't a lot of ships that can take a full compliment of heavy drones, and some need light drones for whatever reason.

Personally I think it depends on what you need to drones to do for you.

if you are flying a drone boat and they are your primary source of damage, then vs battleship sized targets that spreadsheet works.

but caldari battleships for instance are using the drones for frigates and those numbers no longer work out, acolytes would have to travel 56+ kilometers per target to out damage the hobgoblins which is almost never the case unless you are constantly having to recall your drones.

I also prefer caldari drones kinetic damage vs serpentis/gallente/caldari/gurista, and minmatar drones for angel/minmatar missions, but for the em thermal there are a lot of conditions that have to be met to use amarr drones over gallente, such distances traveled, and how often I have to recall my drones to avoid losing them. It's almost never justified taking them.

There is also a flaw in your tracking assumption about the faster drones tracking better, while they do track better they also contribute more self-tranversal because of their faster orbit speeds than the slower drones, and it just about evens out. There is one exception.

The infiltrator II is a special case, it has the slowest orbit speed out of all the medium drones, this gives it by far the best tracking ability. WIth drone tracking mods they out damage hobgoblin II's and hammerhead II's vs frigate sized targets, because of their higher base damage over the hobgoblins, and because of the superior tracking and contributing less self-transversal over the hammerheads. The tracking mod is still required to get them to hit frigates reliably to out damage the hobgoblins. So taking them for this purpose is highly situational... i'm talking you only have a 50m3 drone bay and you want something that can take on both cruisers and frigates reliably. The lvl4 part 1 of 5 Pot and Kettle comes to mind....
stoicfaux
#31 - 2012-04-28 02:50:16 UTC
It's hard to go wrong with thermal drones for the previously stated reasons. Only "exceptions" are kinetic drones against Guristas, which do a little bit more damage than thermal drones with the added benefit of being faster and having a bigger shield (shields regen and there's less chance of armor damage to kinetic drones.)

The other exception is using thermal light drones against Angel frigates. The elite Angel Viper and Angel Webifier (which scram and web) are weakest to thermal damage. However, if you're sending your medium drones against Angel cruisers, than I would use explosive drones.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#32 - 2012-04-28 03:16:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
in laymens terms, for people who fail at maths:

Sansha resists against therm are typically only 5-10% higher than against EM.

Thermal drones do about 40% more dps than EM.

Similar story against other types.

thhief ghabmoef
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-04-28 11:38:36 UTC
There have been many posts about how there appears to be a progression among drones between speeds, tracking, damage, etc, but that it seems someone swapped the EM drone damage modifier with the Exp drone modifier.

The result: acolytes are slower and do less damage with less tracking than warriors.
Acolytes(and the other non-sentry EM drones) are pretty much the shittiest drone type.
That leaves the Kin, The, and Exp as the possibly valid drones.
The Kin and The drones seem to perform fairly similar in my opinion, when its better to do kin damage, thermal is often the 2nd one on the list, and since they have a higher damage modifier, its usually a wash.
When Its Exp then Kin you want to do, the Exp drones "higher than it should be" damage mod, combined with speed, makes them the drones of choice.

Against Sansha/BR/ EM weak foes (with Thermal as their next weakness), Use thermal drones
Against Guristas/Serpentis/ Kin weak (with Thermal as secondary) - doesn't matter, use thermal or Kin drones
Against Angels/ Exp Weak foes, use Exp drones

Since one type of foe has Therm as the clear winner, and another has therm drones equal with Kin, you might as well jsut carry therm.

Against Exp weak/Angels, use Exp drones, in general you only need Thermal and Explosive drones.
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