EVE General Discussion

… and that's just the super capital pilots in null sec NAP-fests!

So the risk that you faced was that you would warp into a fleet of mining ships which turn into frigates shooting back at you? I'm not sure what you're saying. My experience with wardecs has been that the three-man corp is actually 12 people, 3 in the wardeccing corp, 9 flying logistics in NPC corps to support them. When they found out that we didn't keep flying orcas and mammoths, they'd hole up and refuse to fight. Monumental ****-up on their part, and about the only risk that hisec wardeccers ever face. Then they have the temerity to complain that it's too easy to avoid a wardec by simply not logging in!

Perhaps you're different though.

You've highlighted a pretty big issue with the wardec system there. Why should one guy be able to cause that much disruption to so many players and be virtually untraceable without cheating?
You really want every single highsec mining team to bring an armed escort tough enough to kill an Ishtar?

Then there's the fact that its a totally assymetric war. How would the miners strike back against a one man corp, when your combat pilot only joined right before striking? The whole thing is a bad joke, and I hope the next expansion improves things.

Wow.

You seriously spent all that time writing that?

Wow...what a waste of bits. Did you really spend that much time typing out an extremely long way of saying "I am butthurt that people aren't playing the game the way I want them to."? That is really sad.

I grow tired of the ignorance of so many people who claim to know what EVE is about when in reality, they have no clue. EVE isn't about PvP, Risk vs. Reward, or conflict. EVE is about the Sandbox. Period. People can do what they want, when they want for whatever reason they want. If you don't like the way someone is playing the game then **** you. Stop trying to force people to do what you want. That is Communism. Get over yourself.

My sword is the Tornado
My shield is 10-hour heroes
My armor is one-man alt corps

Suffer not the carebear to live.

In the capsuleer's name, let none survive.

It's not really a sandbox when ccp is constantly changing the rules to protect/shield carebears. It's not a sandbox AT ALL! It's a single player game.


The reality is this. carebears are like the Ebola Virus, they enter a game and it's all over.

For the last 15 years, they ****** up every single game... they always start playing games they don't like, and always, ALWAYS, try and change them, until the game fits their "carebear" needs. At that point, the game is dead.


Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis...

I'm not arguing that wardecs are "bad for EVE". Please don't go putting words in my mouth. I'm arguing that there are a group of people in EVE ("griefers") who enjoy tormenting other players and driving them out of the game. These people abuse whatever mechanics are available to them to attack the other players. CCP has rules about harassment of other players, and part of the problem with dec shields and dec shedding was that the wardeccing party would try persecuting the war upon their targets through a dozen shields and sheds, then complain that they weren't allowed to pick on the other player.

Your assertion that the people who are being harassed are "mewlers" is indicative of the mindset that tends towards grief play.

There is a difference between PvP (consensual or not) and grief play: at some point, the other party says, "I don't want to play with you anymore", and yet you continue to beat them up. When the other party wusses out of a fight, it's not up to CCP to force them to fight you, it's up to you to find a new target who will actually put up a fight.

In the meantime, continuing to gank hisec miners is not going to solve the problems that are caused by hisec miners. There are game design and economic issues to address, which suicide ganking doesn't address in the slightest.

There's a lesson that many "PvPers" need to learn from dogs playing with their puppies. Watch the adults playing with the puppies some time: they'll have mock fights and tugs of war. You can participate if you learn how: you have to put up a fight, but only bring as much fight as a puppy can handle. You also need to back down sometimes to give the puppy the experience of "winning". When you play tug-of-war, you pull back (and make a big show of how hard you have to fight that little puppy) and give back. By playing with the puppy this way, you'll maintain the puppy's interest in keeping this activity up.

As the puppy gets bigger, you can get more forceful, and you gradually "play" less and "fight" more.

Of course, you could just bring 100% fight right from the beginning, but that will just squash any hope that the puppy had of finding a friend. The puppy will grow up to be resentful and violent, and that puppy will never be your friend.

So here we have the "puppies" of New Eden being introduced to PvP by having their glorious mining machine blown up from underneath them. The Elite PvPer offers no condolences, no advice, no compensation. And you then wonder why they are resentful and distrusting? Yes, they should HTFU, but they need to be weaned into it. You don't dump someone in the deep end of a pool and tell them, "learn to swim, ya bastard". That's a great way to make people terrified of the water, if they don't drown.

One reason I steer PvP-curious people towards RvB is that they have a relatively controlled environment for learning the ropes in PvP. They can fly frigates with low skills and still be useful. They can have fun without having to be aware of the issues in fleet fights involving battleships, fighters, fighter-bombers, warp disruption bubbles, and so forth. RvB is simultaneously serious PvP, and puppy play. There are rules about RvB fights, but there are also Purple Fleet fights where RvB unites and heads off to low sec and null sec to try it on with the locals.

So please try to understand that there is no black and white in the "wardecs are good or evil" argument. There are only shades of grey. EVE is a harsh world where new players are basically thrown in the deep end and given some very basic instructions on how to avoid drowning, then sent off with the football team to engage in an ultraviolent game of water polo.

People like you are exactly the reason that so many hisec dwellers are PvP-averse. They never get a "fair" fight. Your one-man corp turns into ten sometime between the victim committing to a fight and that fight actually happening. Then there are the aggression tricks like warp-scramming the jet can and self destructing your ship to trigger a CONCORD attack against that guy whose can you flipped half an hour ago. How is a new player supposed to cope with all these hidden rules that make absolutely no sense at all? What about the simpler rules like: when that guy flips your can, only the person who jettisoned that can is allowed to shoot back, but when that shot is fired, the flipper's entire corporation can shoot back at the shooter, but the victim's corp has to wait for the flipper's corp to start shooting before they can join the fight.

The new player is stuck here: If hisec is that complicated, HOW THE DEVIL AM I SUPPOSED TO SURVIVE IN LOWSEC OR NULLSEC?

Now that CCP is trying to simplify aggression mechanics and wardecs, you "Elite" PvPers are all complaining "waaah, dumbing the game down! waaah! CCP is removing PvP!" (that is what the entirety of the OP's 18 original posts boil down to). If CCP really wanted to remove PvP, they'd lock your weapons so you couldn't shoot people in hisec. The fact that they haven't done that should be more than enough evidence that CCP are committed to keeping PvP alive in this harsh, cruel world that they have built.

Simplified aggression mechanics and wardecs will remove all the arcane rules about who is allowed to shoot who, and at what point CONCORD will intervene, what crimes will attract the attention of the local police, yadda yadda. With the simplification, PvP becomes easier to grok, and people will not be so fearful of low sec and null sec.

Show me a hisec wardec corp that doesn't use neutral reps as a matter of course. Hell, most people will laugh and say that if you're not using neutral reps, you're doing it wrong.

Show me a hisec wardec corp that doesn't "sniff out" the victim corp by starting a wardec with a smaller contingent and then adding more pilots to the corp once the victim has shown some fight?

Your suggestion that these things are "unlikely" is out of touch with what actually happens in hisec wardecs. The reason people are fearful of these things happening is that these things happen so often as to be expected.

The basics of CCP Greyscale's abominable presentation were: (1) he hadn't quite thought it through, (2) if you can flip, you're flagged as a "suspect" for anyone to shoot, (3) if anyone shoots you, they are flagged as a suspect too, and (4) if you commit an unlawful aggression, you will be CONCORDED. Of course, CCP Greyscale didn't confess that he was just at the "idea gathering" stage until the presentation was finished and people started asking questions. But that's just the way CCP Greyscale rolls (God bless his little uncommunicative socks).

The idea with "suspect" flagging was that anyone who wants to shoot you can do so, but then that person will become a "suspect" themselves. So there will be plenty of opportunity for grief play under the new system, with fewer stupid surprises such as "oh hey, your aggression timer ran out 15 minutes ago, but when you undock CONCORD FROM FRICKING NOWHERE!"

Under the new system, you'll bait someone (anyone, please just shoot me, I dare you!) and when they shoot you, all your friends will shoot them back. POW! RIGHT IN … bah, I've used that one tonight already.

So just in the same way that "please CCP make the can flippers a valid target for me to shoot" blew up in the care bear's faces (mission ganking, anyone?), so too will the new "I'm safe because anyone can shoot them" rules.