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[Proposal] Get rid of learning implants.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#461 - 2012-04-25 17:01:34 UTC
Andski wrote:
Nathaniel Sandalphon wrote:
No way is this supported!!

Read all the post to page 10 and I believe all has been said there.

The most important thing is:
EVE is a risk game, if you don't like it go play WOW or some other crap more suitable to your ***** gameplay style.

If you don't want to loose implants then just don't buy them, simple as that. Oh wait...you want to skill faster,well guess what buy an implant!!


Goos69 for president Idea
nah...not really but I like his style Lol



tell me more about the risks you take avoiding PvP



Your argument here is a bit hamfisted. Your logic is that anything that involves risk in pvp can prevent pvp and therefore should be removed. That sort of ruins the entire point of the game.

If implants are a particular problem for null sec due to bubbles then make it so null sec bubbles don't hold pods. Thats easy. But don't ruin the game for everyone due to one particular isolated problem.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#462 - 2012-04-25 22:28:11 UTC
wow it's like you totally missed the last 23 pages of this discussion

let's get something out of the way here: this isn't about risks in pvp, this is about being rewarded for /not/ taking risks

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Iri'yana
Corvus Technologies
#463 - 2012-04-26 12:17:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Iri'yana
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Iri'yana wrote:
Eternal Error wrote:
Negative. Implants are there to provide an additional element of risk and choice.


Good argument. Plus, implant also serve a an ISK drain on the game economy being only produced and offered by NPC. Get rid of them and CCP will take away your money in just another way or limit you income by botteling up one or two ISK faucets.

You don't know what an ISK sink is, do you?


Well ... I think I do. Basically it comes down to interaction with NPCs. If you get money from them (bounties, mission rewards, insurance payouts etc.), then its an ISK faucet. If you give money to them (LP stores, NPC taxes, fees etc.), then it is an ISK sind.

Payments between players don't change the amount of ISK in game. If your ship gets shot down, then you have lost an investment and assets worth a certain amount of ISK. But another player, who manufactured all that stuff, got paid for those assets and still has the money. So no change to the overall in-game ISK amount.
Anton Abo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#464 - 2012-04-27 11:51:38 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Iri'yana wrote:
Eternal Error wrote:
Negative. Implants are there to provide an additional element of risk and choice.


Good argument. Plus, implant also serve a an ISK drain on the game economy being only produced and offered by NPC. Get rid of them and CCP will take away your money in just another way or limit you income by botteling up one or two ISK faucets.

You don't know what an ISK sink is, do you?


Learning implants sourced from the LP store are a considerable ISK sink (12M ISK for a +4, I believe)



Not exactly ; The LP store is an ISK sink. The implants are just one of many elements of the store. If you don't buy implants with the LP, you will still use those points for other things, and the sink will remain.




And, no, implants are a reward for not taking risk. Hence i support the thread from OP.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#465 - 2012-04-27 14:24:50 UTC
Anton Abo wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Iri'yana wrote:
Eternal Error wrote:
Negative. Implants are there to provide an additional element of risk and choice.


Good argument. Plus, implant also serve a an ISK drain on the game economy being only produced and offered by NPC. Get rid of them and CCP will take away your money in just another way or limit you income by botteling up one or two ISK faucets.

You don't know what an ISK sink is, do you?


Learning implants sourced from the LP store are a considerable ISK sink (12M ISK for a +4, I believe)



Not exactly ; The LP store is an ISK sink. The implants are just one of many elements of the store. If you don't buy implants with the LP, you will still use those points for other things, and the sink will remain.




And, no, implants are a reward for not taking risk. Hence i support the thread from OP.



How do you figure? Haven't been watching the killboards lately I take it?

================ STOP THE EVEMAIL SPAM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=78152
Corbin Blair
Doomheim
#466 - 2012-04-28 09:48:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Corbin Blair
Faife wrote:
Posters attitude is typical of high sec carebears like him. The point of learning implants is to give an advantage to people who don't die and create a greater death penalty for people who die and are bad at pvp. This is something he might find exciting and intriguing if he were to join an actual corp and move to 0.0, which I recommend for him.

I was going to flame you until I saw your alliance. Well played sir. Almost got me.

Anton Abo wrote:
And, no, implants are a reward for not taking risk. Hence i support the thread from OP.

I completely agree.
Valkyrie D'ark
Armed Resistance Movement
#467 - 2012-04-28 10:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkyrie D'ark
So this is how the drones are controlled to manipulate things. Interesting.
Anyway, Leave our attribute implants alone. No real pilot ever stopped himself from having funn coz of impants. Only wimps like you. If you havent noticed the best combat implants are the most expensive ones. If anything theyv should change sets to give +5 to char attributes
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#468 - 2012-04-28 10:14:08 UTC
Valkyrie D'ark wrote:
So this is how the drones are controlled to manipulate things. Interesting.
Anyway, Leave our attribute implants alone. No real pilot ever stopped himself from having funn coz of impants. Only wimps like you. If you havent noticed the best combat implants are the most expensive ones. If anything theyv should change sets to give +5 to char attributes


"drones" lol

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#469 - 2012-04-28 10:41:38 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Anton Abo wrote:


And, no, implants are a reward for not taking risk. Hence i support the thread from OP.



How do you figure? Haven't been watching the killboards lately I take it?


Given the same amount of ISK to spend on implants, someone in a Low-Risk environment will gain SP faster than someone in a High-Risk environment because Low-Risk guy can stock a small number of expensive implants, expecting that he will not be podded often, while High-Risk guy has to stock a large number of cheaper implants, expecting that he will be podded frequently.

So Implants reward Low-Risk activities by allowing you to amortize their cost over a much greater number of SP.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
DODGE CITY
Keep it Hard
#470 - 2012-04-28 14:33:31 UTC
+4 implants are really not that expensive if you use LP . you probably came upon this ideal after you fail suicide ganked a noob and lost your implants
if ccp did do away with implants i would want my isk value reimbursed to me i bought them so i could train faster than new players. i consider them a bonus for having alot of high level skills and ability to afford them

Troll Skill Lv3 ≡√≡
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#471 - 2012-04-28 23:06:39 UTC
DODGE CITY wrote:
+4 implants are really not that expensive if you use LP . you probably came upon this ideal after you fail suicide ganked a noob and lost your implants
if ccp did do away with implants i would want my isk value reimbursed to me i bought them so i could train faster than new players. i consider them a bonus for having alot of high level skills and ability to afford them


0/10
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#472 - 2012-04-29 01:32:26 UTC
DODGE CITY wrote:
+4 implants are really not that expensive if you use LP . you probably came upon this ideal after you fail suicide ganked a noob and lost your implants
if ccp did do away with implants i would want my isk value reimbursed to me i bought them so i could train faster than new players. i consider them a bonus for having alot of high level skills and ability to afford them


LP you mine are free, amirite?

As for getting the isk value reimbursed, it's like learning skills, they promised that you would train faster full stop, no reference to other players. Any scheme that replaced learning implants would need some way, besides straight reimbursement, to make sure nobody trains significantly slower than they do now.

By the way, +4 implants are cheap if you buy them in isk, but a 30m Isk skull still makes you think twice before jumping in a 5m isk frigate to go on a roam where you don't expect to be able to make it home if your ship asplodes. That's the type of PvP implants end up discouraging.

Thinking about it, what about a hybrid system, Implants AND Boosters (no stacking bonuses ofc). It's not great from a perspective of avoiding rewarding risk-averse behavior, but it would stop punishing risk loving behavior so much.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tri Vetra
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#473 - 2012-04-30 07:30:18 UTC
i like learning implants because i literally love superficial complexity in my videogames and i hate having fun eragjigjareiejrsgajgrigjrea
Eryn Velasquez
#474 - 2012-04-30 09:00:22 UTC
Did'nt read all the 23 pages, but i support the idea to get rid of the learning implants.

If someone posted this before, i apologize, but what about race specific implants?

What i like is the diversity and complexity of this game, but when your toon has trained cybernetics to V, every race is able to use the same implants with the same features. That's boring.

Some new skills like Minmatar/Amarr/Caldari/Gallente cybernetic specialisation would add the ability to use race specific implants. So a Minmatar could better use race specific weapons like Autocannons than an also fully trained Caldari using these.

_“A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau _
Blastfizzle
The Chosen 0nes
#475 - 2012-05-02 09:19:26 UTC
Faife wrote:
Posters attitude is typical of high sec carebears like him. The point of learning implants is to give an advantage to people who don't die and create a greater death penalty for people who die and are bad at pvp. This is something he might find exciting and intriguing if he were to join an actual corp and move to 0.0, which I recommend for him.


It's the opposite. Hi-sec carebears are the ones who are quite safe from dying. They might be the worst PvPers, but if they stay away from smartbombing-worthy targets, they are very, very safe.

I am pretty bad PvPer, but even the best in our alliance know that there are daily risks of losing your pod at 0.0.
Being good PvPer does not make you invulnerable to getting alphaed and stuck in a bubble.

Therefore, learning implants actually reward carebears.
Rimase
#476 - 2012-05-02 09:39:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Rimase
Attribute Implants buffing learning speeds are ok. There is no problem with that.

Pros:
  • They reward the player who wants to progress faster, the player who makes an investment to achieve a target quicker through deciding to play the game longer than expected.
  • LP system is a money-sink. It's where ISK leaves the economy and this not arguable - it is good.
Cons:
They can be a tad bit excessive in their buffs. There's so much sandbox **** in EVE that it's kind of redonkulous to have another layer of buffers being Implants and Boosters. Boosters are especially f-ing excessive.
  • Too much is going on - reduce the madness!


After all, if this is not resolved, how can CCP truly balance ships as they say?

Proposal:
  • Change Attribute Implants to be Attribute-only!
  • Change Attribute Implant's 'named' sets to give an additional boost in specific attribute(s)
    • (Instead of buffs like increased damage, etc)
  • Remove Hardwiring Implants but;
  • keep Boosters and change them as contraband for upcoming Smuggler professionals.

  • NEW: Immortal-grade Clones (Implant)
    • (Ideal for null sec PvPers and Militia)
    (Sub-legal: Illegal in Concord & Empire zones unless Militia)
    (Denies use of +Attribute implants)

What would all these bring?
  • Controlled devastation of loss. (losing few Boosters isnt as bad as losing Hardwires)
  • Conservation of finances. (individual Boosters cost less than Hardwiring)
  • Increase value of Boosters. (no Hardwiring Implants & Illegal in Secure space)
  • Increase production of Boosters. (demand!)
  • Increase tactical advantage of Boosters. (no Hardwiring Implants)
  • Boosters encourage null sec and low sec economy. (contraband)
  • Dawn of the Smuggler profession, which is coming! (high-sec contraband for $$$)
  • Balanced gameplay yet still effected by wealth & economy. (less +stat madness)

Looking to join Caldari Faction Warfare corporation!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#477 - 2012-05-02 13:38:34 UTC
Anton Abo wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Iri'yana wrote:
Eternal Error wrote:
Negative. Implants are there to provide an additional element of risk and choice.


Good argument. Plus, implant also serve a an ISK drain on the game economy being only produced and offered by NPC. Get rid of them and CCP will take away your money in just another way or limit you income by botteling up one or two ISK faucets.

You don't know what an ISK sink is, do you?


Learning implants sourced from the LP store are a considerable ISK sink (12M ISK for a +4, I believe)



Not exactly ; The LP store is an ISK sink. The implants are just one of many elements of the store. If you don't buy implants with the LP, you will still use those points for other things, and the sink will remain.




And, no, implants are a reward for not taking risk. Hence i support the thread from OP.



The lp store is pretty much dead already due to lots of lp from incursions and the agent quality changes. The implants are a very large part of what is left of it. If you take out that substantial amount of the store without replacing it then the few items left will be swampted and the lp stores will almost certainly be worthless.

That is a big impact on the game.

Now why not allow pods to warp out of bubbles? And then you don't have this problem anymore. I mean shooting bubbled pods is not really that challenging is it? You want to destroy a major part of the game (the lp store) that requires thought and research so you can continue to shoot fish in a barrel. That is about as clear an example of dumbing the game down that I can find.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Archdaimon
Merchants of the Golden Goose
#478 - 2012-05-05 00:47:06 UTC
Learning implants like learning skills should be removed.

Keep the hardwirings though. They make a fun risk/reward system.

Wormholes have the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me -
Agromos nulKaedi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#479 - 2012-05-05 00:53:32 UTC
I support it. While on newbie chat it was disheartening how often people would become obsessed with getting faster learning speed, remapping, etc. all of which would lead to more highsec risk averse stuff. People who are risk averse aren't flying around to shoot at you or get shot at, and you kind've need to start the new people's pew addiction early.

If you want good fights you need to make it so that new people won't worry about getting into them. Just replace the whole shebang with somewhat raised base attributes, all flat across the board with no way to change them. Convert all existing learning implants with a direct payoff of SP, much like happened with learning skills.
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc
Cat Scratch Fevers
#480 - 2012-05-06 00:16:49 UTC
Idiotic goon proposal and immediate pile-on of goon supporters.
So typical, so obvious.

No support and I could only hope the CSM can see it too.

Nothing clever at this time.