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How highsec miners threaten EVE, and how we can stop them. Manifesto II.

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March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2012-04-27 10:10:58 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
EFF ONEF1 wrote:
both sides are asking CCP to change/remove/nerf/buff they way the other side plays the game.

everyone is a hypocrite.

When was the last time non-consensual PvP got a buff?

Now think of all the "features" CCP have introduced over the years that allow you to avoid that PvP.

let's remember:
- supers nerf (drones + logoffski)
- titan nerf (guns + tracking)
- jump bridges nerf (boost to gate camping, nerf to "carebears in JFs")
- new T3 battlecruisers (cheaper gank)
- boost to hybrids (cheaper gank)
- ...?

None of that has anything to do with non-consensual PvP, and supers and titans are really relevent when it comes to high sec risk averse care bears. I hear they farm level fours and run mining ops in their tracking titans all the time.

As for your comment on tier 3s and destroyers, that just shows you haven't read the OP. I recommend you read it before commenting on it, or at least search for the relevant section.

only if you read whole posts chain......

but this is not for us, yea?Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Stirko Hek
New Home Industries
#202 - 2012-04-27 10:32:57 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

Wardecs are apparently fun to a great many people who don't want that sense of achievement from facing risk and coming out on top.


What a load of crap. I was running a single man corp on an alt, wardeccing mining corps of 20+ people. One alt against multiple others. I'd say winning a fight like that would be coming out on top, pure because if these miners just fit a bunch of rifters, thrashers or even a rookie ships, they'd have been able to defend themselves easily.

That is the problem here, where these 100~ man corps will basically jump ship to an alt corp to hide from a wardec from a single man corp. Telling me I shouldn't be mean and go after these poor, weak miners who can't even engage me twenty to one is just plain weak, it's a poor argument.

Worst of all, you're ignoring the sandbox issue. In a sandbox game, I'm free to wardec them. Instead of running and hiding, they are also free to shoot back at me in ships of their choice. All they need do is keep a good eye on local, dock up when a wartarget enters, swap ships and bait the sucker. The dumb part of it all is that they're so scared of a single pilot, they won't even dare risk cheap t1 ships to beat that person at their own game.

Are high sec miners that sentimental about virtual goods?
TWHC Assistant
#203 - 2012-04-27 10:38:46 UTC
Is this what you call a rant?
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#204 - 2012-04-27 10:39:14 UTC
I usually find gankers tears delicious but in this case they're not.

I completely agree with everything you've written and i think all these response posts are just the symptoms of the cancer showing.

However i think the solution would be far simpler: let them mine, let them make high sec completely pve.

But remove every kind of profit from it, you want to mine in high sec? Fine, you wont make more than 10ml/hour with a max skilled hulk and orca boosts.

That's how it should be imho: let them do what they wont, just balance the risk/reward aspect.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2012-04-27 10:41:22 UTC
OK, I apologise for not reading it through fully before making a judgement, that was my bad.

I still think it's a hysterical pile of ****. Carebears might be a problem but you're not going to get the disparate forces of EVE Online to unite in any manner - especially not by insulting large swathes of them.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Stirko Hek
New Home Industries
#206 - 2012-04-27 10:50:00 UTC
Just Alter wrote:

But remove every kind of profit from it, you want to mine in high sec? Fine, you wont make more than 10ml/hour with a max skilled hulk and orca boosts.

That's how it should be imho: let them do what they wont, just balance the risk/reward aspect.


This, if you want safety it comes at a price. That price is grinding low end ores for pennies. Just like any other game, low risk = low reward. Want the good stuff? Learn to watch local, pay attention and actually play the game.
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#207 - 2012-04-27 10:51:04 UTC
Mentorm wrote:
Too Long Didn't Read

+1
gone to read evenews24 instead P
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#208 - 2012-04-27 10:54:37 UTC
OMG! H¡tler plays Eve?!?!

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#209 - 2012-04-27 10:58:49 UTC
Stirko Hek wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

Wardecs are apparently fun to a great many people who don't want that sense of achievement from facing risk and coming out on top.


What a load of crap. I was running a single man corp on an alt, wardeccing mining corps of 20+ people. One alt against multiple others. I'd say winning a fight like that would be coming out on top, pure because if these miners just fit a bunch of rifters, thrashers or even a rookie ships, they'd have been able to defend themselves easily.


What risk did you face?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#210 - 2012-04-27 11:03:39 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Titan can be killed, cyno alt can be killed, target system can be cyno jammed, cynos and titan-bridges need fuel.
Titan pilots are known to all spies (and in watchlist already), cyno alts can be detected and watchlisted too. Intelligence at work.

Neutral logistics ships just do the job and can't be countered without CONCORD intervention.


Neutral logistics go blinky red when they rep your war targets. You can shoot them just fine. The Incursion tweaks did not change that: the Incursion tweaks simply meant that a logistics pilot can choose to no longer rep a GCC target.

On the other hand, neutral off-grid boosters are certainly a problem for hisec wardecs.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#211 - 2012-04-27 11:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Stirko Hek wrote:
Just Alter wrote:

But remove every kind of profit from it, you want to mine in high sec? Fine, you wont make more than 10ml/hour with a max skilled hulk and orca boosts.

That's how it should be imho: let them do what they wont, just balance the risk/reward aspect.


This, if you want safety it comes at a price. That price is grinding low end ores for pennies. Just like any other game, low risk = low reward. Want the good stuff? Learn to watch local, pay attention and actually play the game.


How would you exactly make the earn just pennies?

Trit, Pyerite etc, have exactly the value you and others put into them. By default they could be worth close to zero.

It's players choices to pay more than just pennies, you can do nothing against that.


Actually there is a solution: you and your buddies embrace mining and stop buying from hi seccers. You'll see how fun mining is.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#212 - 2012-04-27 11:08:47 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Titan can be killed, cyno alt can be killed, target system can be cyno jammed, cynos and titan-bridges need fuel.
Titan pilots are known to all spies (and in watchlist already), cyno alts can be detected and watchlisted too. Intelligence at work.

Neutral logistics ships just do the job and can't be countered without CONCORD intervention.


Neutral logistics go blinky red when they rep your war targets. You can shoot them just fine. The Incursion tweaks did not change that: the Incursion tweaks simply meant that a logistics pilot can choose to no longer rep a GCC target.

On the other hand, neutral off-grid boosters are certainly a problem for hisec wardecs.

Neutral RR is a problem for high sec PvP, if you claim otherwise you've probably never done any high sec PvP.

Neutral RR and the simplicity of war dec evasion are the two reasons everyone I know who has tried high sec wars have given up on them and returned to real space.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpaid Tactical Team
#213 - 2012-04-27 11:09:20 UTC
I like turtles.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#214 - 2012-04-27 11:10:49 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Stirko Hek wrote:
Just Alter wrote:

But remove every kind of profit from it, you want to mine in high sec? Fine, you wont make more than 10ml/hour with a max skilled hulk and orca boosts.

That's how it should be imho: let them do what they wont, just balance the risk/reward aspect.


This, if you want safety it comes at a price. That price is grinding low end ores for pennies. Just like any other game, low risk = low reward. Want the good stuff? Learn to watch local, pay attention and actually play the game.


How would you exactly make the earn just pennies?

Trit, Pyerite etc, have exactly the value you and others put into them. By default they could be worth close to zero.

It's players choices to pay more than just pennies, you can do nothing agaist that.

You can reduce their spawn rate, reduce the yield in high sec or you could... You know... Design a war system that isn't laughably easy to bypass. Hell, you could even buff suicide ganking.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Stirko Hek
New Home Industries
#215 - 2012-04-27 11:13:06 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Stirko Hek wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

Wardecs are apparently fun to a great many people who don't want that sense of achievement from facing risk and coming out on top.


What a load of crap. I was running a single man corp on an alt, wardeccing mining corps of 20+ people. One alt against multiple others. I'd say winning a fight like that would be coming out on top, pure because if these miners just fit a bunch of rifters, thrashers or even a rookie ships, they'd have been able to defend themselves easily.


What risk did you face?


The fact they could easily just fit some cheap frigates and shoot back against one person? Or is PVP such an alien concept to you that you could not even consider such an idea?
Josef Djugashvilis
#216 - 2012-04-27 11:15:16 UTC
Short version.

'Op doesn't like miners'

This is not a signature.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#217 - 2012-04-27 11:16:10 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

You can reduce their spawn rate, reduce the yield in high sec or you could... You know... Design a war system that isn't laughably easy to bypass. Hell, you could even buff suicide ganking.


So, you want to reduce the minerals produced and greatly increase supply shortage as a cure to miners earning too much?

I think you got economy right the opposite way it works.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Bischopt
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#218 - 2012-04-27 11:28:33 UTC
lol
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#219 - 2012-04-27 11:29:29 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

You can reduce their spawn rate, reduce the yield in high sec or you could... You know... Design a war system that isn't laughably easy to bypass. Hell, you could even buff suicide ganking.


So, you want to reduce the minerals produced and greatly increase supply shortage as a cure to miners earning too much?

I think you got economy right the opposite way it works.

Not to miners, to high sec miners.

Although personally I think the better approach would be to nerf their ability to evade war decs, and possibly turn back some of the ganking nerfs.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Lady Hofstedar
Doomheim
#220 - 2012-04-27 11:30:51 UTC
Biggest pile of **** i have ever read from an idiot pvpers who just realised that his antics agaisnt miners in low sec has messed up one side of the game.

A long winded pile of rubbish to incite mass griefing