These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

In defense of Pay-to-Win

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Socrata
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-09-30 02:12:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Socrata
In this TL;DR post, I will defend pay-to-win (P2W), at least as regards skillpoints; i.e. I will defend the idea that players ought to be allowed to purchase skillpoints. This argument is on principle, and will not take into account possible existential side-effects (e.g. players quitting because they irrationally hate p2w). My argument is that there is really no critical difference between buying skill points and the current method of training them during one's monthly subscription.

Let's assume that a person can train 1 million SP per month. Let's further assume that to buy a million SP from a cash shop would cost 20 dollars. consider the two scenarios:

-- Person A pays 15 dollars a month for a subscription, and over a year of play ($180) trains 12 million SP.

-- Person B buys the game, and then spends 240 dollars for 12 million SP.

Strictly in terms of cost, person B has paid more for the same amount of SP. One might say that Person A "earned" his or her SP in a way that Person B did not; but this seems specious: Person A simply set his or her skill bar to train every few days (at most). One might also say that Person A had to wait on his or her skills, while Person B did not. True, but the flip side of this is that Person A has more entertainment bang for her buck: she received 12 months of playing a game and 12 million SP. Person B spent more money for significantly less value.
Landrae
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-09-30 02:21:32 UTC
Socrata wrote:
In this TL;DR post, I will defend pay-to-win (P2W), at least as regards skillpoints; i.e. I will defend the idea that players ought to be allowed to purchase skillpoints. This argument is on principle, and will not take into account possible existential side-effects (e.g. players quitting because they irrationally hate p2w). My argument is that there is really no critical difference between buying skill points and the current method of training them during one's monthly subscription.

Let's assume that a person can train 1 million SP per month. Let's further assume that to buy a million SP from a cash shop would cost 20 dollars. consider the two scenarios:

-- Person A pays 15 dollars a month for a subscription, and over a year of play ($180) trains 12 million SP.

-- Person B buys the game, and then spends 240 dollars for 12 million SP.

Strictly in terms of cost, person B has paid more for the same amount of SP. One might say that Person A "earned" his or her SP in a way that Person B did not; but this seems specious: Person A simply set his or her skill bar to train every few days (at most). One might also say that Person A had to wait on his or her skills, while Person B did not. True, but the flip side of this is that Person A has more entertainment bang for her buck: she received 12 months of playing a game and 12 million SP. Person B spent more money for significantly less value.


0/10

Nothing worth seeing here on to the next thread.

Welcome to Eve Online
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#3 - 2011-09-30 02:30:11 UTC  |  Edited by: non judgement
I agree that if you are going to have something like this it should be expensive.
So that learning skills the normal way is a lot cheaper.

But I don't agree with it.

Plus I don't think it would be the case. It is also easily used by people who use bots to get a character up fast ready to start making isk and then when that bot is shut down. make a new account and new character and instantly have the skills to bot right away.

Isn't that enough of a negative to put you off the idea?

You can already buy a character that has the skills. so this doesn't mean anything.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#4 - 2011-09-30 02:33:18 UTC
So… where's the defence?
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-09-30 02:33:27 UTC
OP has no idea it seems.

For starters you haven't factored in the time investment into this - one is a gimme it all now option, the other is a good things come to those that wait one. I should not be able to fly a super capital on a 1 day old char because I purchased SP instead of $1000 pants from the Nex store...
DeliciousHamBeast
The Elenianlightenment
#6 - 2011-09-30 02:38:32 UTC
Adding pay to win to a game that didn't start with it trivilaizes the efforts and time of your older players... and it isn't going to win you any friends. If you're in that much of a rush... as was said above you can go buy someone else's character.

-- Beep Beep Imma Jeep.
Elyssa MacLeod
Doomheim
#7 - 2011-09-30 02:41:25 UTC
reported for trolling

GM Homonoia: Suicide ganks are a valid and viable tactic in EVE.

Where is your God now carebear?
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#8 - 2011-09-30 02:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Socrata wrote:


-- Person A pays 15 dollars a month for a subscription, and over a year of play ($180) trains 12 million SP.

-- Person B buys the game, and then spends 240 dollars for 12 million SP.


Person C says "I'm buying $240 worth of GTCs and buying a character with 12M SP right ******* now. None of this 'what if" bullshit". If I want to bypass the SP grind I can buy SP already.

And before the "but someone had to train that SP" crap. Who cares. I PERSONALLY DID NOT HAVE TO TRAIN A THING!! I am paying to win.

Mr Epeen Cool
Socrata
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-09-30 02:52:58 UTC
Quote:
For starters you haven't factored in the time investment into this


Actually, I quite clearly discussed this notion, and dismissed it. The only time invested in training skill points is the time you spent every few days setting your skill queue. The rest of the time you were just playing the game, or doing whatever else it is you do during the day when you're not playing Eve.

Quote:
Adding pay to win to a game that didn't start with it trivilaizes the efforts and time of your older players


Older players did not expend time or effort to get said skill points.



Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#10 - 2011-09-30 02:53:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mr Epeen wrote:
And before the "but someone had to train that SP" crap. Who cares. I PERSONALLY DID NOT HAVE TO TRAIN A THING!! I am paying to win.
…you mean, apart from that crucial difference that you pointed out yourself: that you're not paying for SP — you're paying for a character and that those SP do, indeed, have to be trained both before and after the purchase.
Socrata wrote:
Quote:
For starters you haven't factored in the time investment into this
Actually, I quite clearly discussed this notion, and dismissed it.
…and that is why your defence is entirely dismissable: because you ignore one of the most factors that differentiates buying SP from training SP (to nothing of not even beginning to addressing all the other issues involved).

So again: where's the defence?
Quote:
Older players did not expend time or effort to get said skill points.
Inherently false due to the fact that they have to wait for those SP to accumulate.
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#11 - 2011-09-30 02:55:48 UTC
Socrata wrote:
Quote:
For starters you haven't factored in the time investment into this


Actually, I quite clearly discussed this notion, and dismissed it. The only time invested in training skill points is the time you spent every few days setting your skill queue. The rest of the time you were just playing the game, or doing whatever else it is you do during the day when you're not playing Eve.

Quote:
Adding pay to win to a game that didn't start with it trivilaizes the efforts and time of your older players


Older players did not expend time or effort to get said skill points.


What the?!?!
Older players did not?
crazy talk.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#12 - 2011-09-30 02:56:23 UTC
Socrata wrote:
My argument is that there is really no critical difference between buying skill points and the current method of training them during one's monthly subscription.


This thing all thing devours;
birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
gnaws iron, bites steel;
grinds hard stones into meal;
slays kings, ruins towns,
and beats high mountains down.

I argue that there is really a critical difference between buying skill points and the current method of training them.

Socrata wrote:
Strictly in terms of cost, person B has paid more for the same amount of SP.


Strictly in terms of exchange of currency, perhaps. There are other costs besides money.

Socrata wrote:
… the flip side of this is that Person A has more entertainment bang for her buck: she received 12 months of playing a game and 12 million SP.


And more to the point, spent most of that 12 months not having 12 million SP.

Socrata wrote:
Person B spent more money for significantly less value.


I would argue that B starting a 12 month subscription with the same amount of SP as A would have at the end of that period gives B significantly more value.

You might argue that SP are not the determining factor of value. I would agree. But then why do you want to buy them?

There is something else of value that you are ignoring, it is the answer to the riddle posed above, and is a word that you have not mentioned. The fact that you have so thoroughly skirted around the word implies to me that it has value that you do not understand.

Do you know what the thing is that I am talking about? What is it that has more value than money, and many people don't pay attention to until it is too late? What is it that many wage slaves wish they could have more of to spend on their children?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
mkint
#13 - 2011-09-30 02:56:59 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
Socrata wrote:

Older players did not expend time or effort to get said skill points.



says the 20 day old character.

edit: in other words, OP does not have the perspective to be even remotely qualified to discuss the topic, much less to be taken seriously.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#14 - 2011-09-30 03:00:27 UTC
Socrata wrote:
Actually, I quite clearly discussed this notion, and dismissed it.p


No, you did not.

Socrata wrote:
The only time invested in training skill points is the time you spent every few days setting your skill queue.


So if I spend more time adjusting my skill queue, will I gain SP faster?

Socrata wrote:
The rest of the time you were just playing the game, or doing whatever else it is you do during the day when you're not playing Eve.


And yet you fail to understand that word, now that you have chosen to use it.

Socrata wrote:
Older players did not expend time or effort to get said skill points.


And yet they are older.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
The Apostle
Doomheim
#15 - 2011-09-30 03:00:39 UTC
Quote:
existential side-effects

As accustomed as I am to long-winded posts, I saw these 2 words and went.....

NOPE.

Good luck OP..... With several characters @ 3 years old selling at 8b a pop, I cannot agree with you even whilst ignoring existential side-effects. Cool

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#16 - 2011-09-30 03:01:04 UTC  |  Edited by: non judgement
Mara Rinn wrote:
Socrata wrote:
My argument is that there is really no critical difference between buying skill points and the current method of training them during one's monthly subscription.


This thing all thing devours;
birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
gnaws iron, bites steel;
grinds hard stones into meal;
slays kings, ruins towns,
and beats high mountains down.

........

There is something else of value that you are ignoring, it is the answer to the riddle posed above, and is a word that you have not mentioned. The fact that you have so thoroughly skirted around the word implies to me that it has value that you do not understand.

Do you know what the thing is that I am talking about? What is it that has more value than money, and many people don't pay attention to until it is too late? What is it that many wage slaves wish they could have more of to spend on their children?

Is the answer Erosion?
jk

I seem to have lost the ability to be serious in this thread.... silly thread needs silly answers
Stella SGP
#17 - 2011-09-30 03:16:09 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
There is something else of value that you are ignoring, it is the answer to the riddle posed above, and is a word that you have not mentioned. The fact that you have so thoroughly skirted around the word implies to me that it has value that you do not understand.

Do you know what the thing is that I am talking about? What is it that has more value than money, and many people don't pay attention to until it is too late? What is it that many wage slaves wish they could have more of to spend on their children?

ICE CREAM! \o/
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#18 - 2011-09-30 03:36:07 UTC
1. More SP =/= Win

2. Skilling up is part of the journey. Play the game the way the devs designed it. Some of the most fun, memorable times I've had in Eve were when I was at a low sp level.

When you read a book, do you just skip to the last chapter? Bah, you probably do.

No good deed goes unpunished
tika te
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2011-09-30 03:45:47 UTC
Quote:
is really no critical difference between buying skill points and the current method of training them during one's monthly subscription.


wrong. its TIME. you can't pay TIME to pass faster/slower in your favour, and TIME is one of the essential "goods" in eve...you shouldn't, under any circumstances, be able to "bribe" time...
Spineker
#20 - 2011-09-30 03:47:40 UTC
Landrae wrote:
Socrata wrote:
In this TL;DR post, I will defend pay-to-win (P2W), at least as regards skillpoints; i.e. I will defend the idea that players ought to be allowed to purchase skillpoints. This argument is on principle, and will not take into account possible existential side-effects (e.g. players quitting because they irrationally hate p2w). My argument is that there is really no critical difference between buying skill points and the current method of training them during one's monthly subscription.

Let's assume that a person can train 1 million SP per month. Let's further assume that to buy a million SP from a cash shop would cost 20 dollars. consider the two scenarios:

-- Person A pays 15 dollars a month for a subscription, and over a year of play ($180) trains 12 million SP.

-- Person B buys the game, and then spends 240 dollars for 12 million SP.

Strictly in terms of cost, person B has paid more for the same amount of SP. One might say that Person A "earned" his or her SP in a way that Person B did not; but this seems specious: Person A simply set his or her skill bar to train every few days (at most). One might also say that Person A had to wait on his or her skills, while Person B did not. True, but the flip side of this is that Person A has more entertainment bang for her buck: she received 12 months of playing a game and 12 million SP. Person B spent more money for significantly less value.


0/10

Nothing worth seeing here on to the next thread.



Yep because some people want to pay for skill instead of earning it good post even if it was a short sentence.
123Next pageLast page