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New explorer asking non-presented information in guides.
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Jun Kuo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-04-24 14:01:27 UTC
I will be quick.

I know everything I need regarding triangulation with 4,5,6,7 and even 8 probes, one day perhaps 9 probes at once.

But I do not understand one important and yet not spoken detail : What kind of space territory would have the most cosmic signatures?

I usualy scan in High-security sector, like 0.9 or 0.8, but the results are poor, to say the least. Where could I find the most cosmic signatures?

Is there any difference to cosmic signal NUMBERS betwen high and low security sectors? (Never asked quality or dificulty, asked number of cosmic signatures).

Also, if I set the maximum range of my probes (Core Probes currently, all at 32 AU at most, I have starting yet decent skills) and make a simple triangulation in the whole solar system, will I pretty much always find anything? How much time does it take for a cosmic signature to vanish? How better to find signals (Can be at weak signals, just to have a notion in the whole solar system) can the Deepspace probe be than the Core Probe?

Is there a minimum % in the signal strength in order to be detected? Would signals lower than 1% be detectable? Are there any advices to maximize the cosmic signatures detection in a solar system? Is there a limit of cosmic signatures per each solar system?

Thank you very much. These details are not clear in any guide I found in the internet. I am sorry for the amount of questions.

Travel Safe.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2012-04-24 14:26:19 UTC
Well, first off you can never launch more than 8 probes, it's 3+Astrometrics level.

And there's about the same numbers of sigs in high, low, and null; though there's less competition in low/null, so they cycle around less often.

And probes will always detect anything that's in their range, so if the system fits inside the 32AU bubble, then you'll see all sigs that are in the system.

Sigs vanish either the DT 3d after someone first initiates warp to them or 1-15 min after the site is completed and people are off-grid; when they despawn, they respawn somewhere else in the appropriate security/faction space within minutes.

DSPs aren't any better at finding sigs, they're actually worse due to lower strength. But they are larger, meaning that they can scan larger systems at once. And if used properly, you can use them to tell what size sigs there are in the system on the first scan (I believe the link is http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp for an explanation of that)

The min strength, with good RL skills at probing, for finding any sig in the game is ~75-ish. But with strength in the low-60s, easily achievable with any non-bonused ship, you can probe down anything but 0.02 sigs, which aren't usually worth worrying about in highsec anyways.

And there's no limit to sigs in a system (I personally have found systems with 40+ sigs at once). And the way to find all the sigs in the system is to drop a probe that can cover the whole system.
Ikonia
Royal Amarr Expeditions
#3 - 2012-04-24 15:00:06 UTC
I am living the locust life as explorer. I go to where the treasures go :)

U wont need more than 5 probes out - in rare cases an overlapping 6th probe in center is necessary.

Rules for finding treasures:

The more far out, the better. Hisec borderlines to low/nullsec always have the best plexes and sites. (min 20 jumps out of trade hubs)
The lower the sec standing of a system, the higher the values of the sites, the more diffcult. (3/10 and 4/10 are high secs best)
The less people, the more for you.
The more people, the more sites will respawn, but you have higher competition.
The best exploration systems are far away from the next station, next mission agent, next epic arc or COSMOS site, DED spawn and Incursion.
The best exploration systems never are on a highly frequented travel lane like e.g. from null to low to hisec.

Exceptions show that even sometimes in systems with 50 players you can find the ultra rare 4/10 site. But mind, this is an exception and pure luck.

All i can recommend is, that you should be prepared to stay out of the trade hubs for a very long time. The less you are depnding on stations for refueling, reammo and refining, the better. Exploration is like being the captain of a fish trawler:

You need to know where the good spots are. You need to know how populated it is there. You need to know when to be there. But you never know whats in your next site - it might be crap or riches. Thats exploration.

Cheers
Diamonica Norya
Pro Synergy
#4 - 2012-04-24 15:28:43 UTC
Ikonia wrote:

The lower the sec standing of a system, the higher the values of the sites, the more diffcult. (3/10 and 4/10 are high secs best)


I used to thought the same until I found 4/10s in 0.9sec on few occasions

Apparently if you searched the forums and st mio and other capsuleers experiments, it's quite a random thing and signatures seems to spawn randomly where regional pirate faction and security (high, low, null)status met the criteria, so a site always spawns in place where the other despawns, but not necessarily in the same region
Flakey Foont
#5 - 2012-04-24 16:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Flakey Foont
For non-plex sites, the lower the sec the higher the number of cans.
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#6 - 2012-04-24 16:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Liliana Rahl
Ikonia wrote:

The more far out, the better. Hisec borderlines to low/nullsec always have the best plexes and sites. (min 20 jumps out of trade hubs)


This is wrong. Re: I used to enjoy farming sites in noob systems, where the residents don't really know how to probe and sites lay dormant, waiting for people like me to run.

Quote:
The best exploration systems are far away from the next station, next mission agent, next epic arc or COSMOS site, DED spawn and Incursion.


Again wrong. You just have to be good at probing

Quote:
The best exploration systems never are on a highly frequented travel lane like e.g. from null to low to hisec.


Again wrong. Its called random. You just have to be good at probing.

Quote:
Exceptions show that even sometimes in systems with 50 players you can find the ultra rare 4/10 site. But mind, this is an exception and pure luck.


Spawns are random? You don't say...

Quote:
You need to know where the good spots are. You need to know how populated it is there.


There are no good spots.

Well, on second thought...the good spots are anywhere in Caldari/Gurista spawning space.
Jun Kuo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-04-24 17:43:46 UTC
I thank you for all the advices. I appreciate the aid.

Everyone have safe travels.
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-04-24 19:31:20 UTC
There are some unusual pockets of space where there is high-sec BEHIND a low-sec system. These are usually gold mines; the low-sec residents are usually low security status and don't bother with them. The few residents that ARE in these pockets are usually there for other reasons (God knows what?).

There's a pocket in Minmatar space, about 10 jumps out of Hek to to the east (pipe into drone lands iirc) and I know of another one in Caldari space just beyond Aurohunen.

They're not exactly a trade secret, they're still subject to the complex respawn rates etc.; but because they're part of larger regions that get farmed regularly, sometimes you get a nice build up in those 2-4 systems.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Mnemosyne Gloob
#9 - 2012-04-25 07:30:09 UTC
Jun Kuo wrote:
Is there a minimum % in the signal strength in order to be detected?



I think i heard that if the result would be be below 0.01 % it won't show up. This only applies to Deep Space Probes and not so good skills tho.
Ikonia
Royal Amarr Expeditions
#10 - 2012-04-25 08:12:42 UTC
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:
Jun Kuo wrote:
Is there a minimum % in the signal strength in order to be detected?



I think i heard that if the result would be be below 0.01 % it won't show up. This only applies to Deep Space Probes and not so good skills tho.


There are rumours about sites that dont respond if you dont have enough skill, but from what i saw in the results and from the expedrience with lessons i gave to exploration beginners the results at least in hisec and lowsec are the same for an all-skill-V and an all-skill-I explorer.

The difference is simply in the success of pinning down a signal to 100%, in which the lower skilled explorer will fail.

Most who have no idea about exploration, like the Liliana Troll above, talk about "...being good in probing" and such, simply identifying themselves as somebody who never has done exploration. There is no "good at probing". The results will always be the same for pro and starting explorers, both will see all singals at the maximum range always.

But to state your 0.01% issue: That comes not from exploration but from recon and scanning with combat probes where signal strengths can be that weak that they do not appear on the scanner but are being seen on the d-scan.

Just from the logical point of view: if something is drifting around in space, and nobody knows about its existence, and its signal is so weak, that it cant be seen on any scanner - how would we know that it exists? Shocked

Cheers
Mnemosyne Gloob
#11 - 2012-04-25 08:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mnemosyne Gloob
Mind you i don't use DSP, but i think it can happen. Using Mio's chart http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/highsec.html : If i put in 7 in the Probe Strength field, the lowest band will be listed as 0.01 %. Now say i have a probe strength even lower than that, the returned signal would be something like 0.004 %, which i assume gets massacred to 0 in game and now will not be displayed as a result.

I don't know if this happens, but i heard mention of it.

Also if you think the person behind the character Liliana Rahl has never explored, you make a false assumption. It's not me tho.
Ikonia
Royal Amarr Expeditions
#12 - 2012-04-25 11:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ikonia
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:
Mind you i don't use DSP, but i think it can happen. Using Mio's chart http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/highsec.html : If i put in 7 in the Probe Strength field, the lowest band will be listed as 0.01 %. Now say i have a probe strength even lower than that, the returned signal would be something like 0.004 %, which i assume gets massacred to 0 in game and now will not be displayed as a result.

I don't know if this happens, but i heard mention of it.

Also if you think the person behind the character Liliana Rahl has never explored, you make a false assumption. It's not me tho.


Somebody who is so obviously trolling and delivering nonsense must simply calculate in being considered as one who has never done exploring, especially when telling somebody he is completely wrong with his opinion, who is doing exactly what he described since before the exploration patch and that in all purposes sucessful.

About the chart from Mio i have to admit that this scenario might be mathematically possible in what her calculation is doing. From my point of view it wouldnt make sense from the game mechanics to have a signal strength, which would be impossible to be found, except the exploration mechanics designer wanted to have some kind of big white whale, that only very few can discover. Though, it MIGHT be possible still.

In common MMO games are designed in a way, so that individualism is very limited for the satisfaction of all players. Eve is different in many ways. Even the expeditions triggered in plexes have such "situations" by random, where you can escalate the storyline to something completely different than the description in the spoilers say. From that point of view, i have to agree, that this "whale" really could exist. But from my experience with exploration i can tell you, i havent found any of these close-2-0 signals.

As i am using different ships to explore from my Orca, and measuring the differences in the responses, i can see the differences in the % and in the failing to pin certain signals down with specific ships, but not that i see some signals, and some not, depending on ship and equipment. The original response of signals is the same on scanner when using my Anathema (T2 probing vessel with sister equipment, sister probes, probing rigs and probing implants on all probing skills V) and when using my Legion (T3 vessel, covert ops fitted probing vessel with energy rigs) and my Zealot (T2 HAC set for dps omnitank without any exploration specific rigs or equipment) or my executioner (salvager set). If something lies out of the scanning signals of the executioner one of my other ships - at least the specialised Anathema - should show it up, or?

If something is responding that weak that a highly specialised exploration vessel cant get a basic signal on the 32 AU range with 5 probes, than i tend to say, it doesnt exist, though it would still be mathematically possible. But since signals getting harder to pin down when lowering range of the probes, that signal would simply be vanished at 16 AU according the 0.1% signal, in that fact impossible to be followed down to 100%.

The maths of the exploration signal system is set that way, that a signal MUST RESPOND at 64/32 AU but in relativity to the density might be impossible to be pinned down when lowering scan range - lack of skills/equipment - by being placed outside the bubble of the scanning probes and vanishing from the scanner.

So again from the logical point of view: Even IF the signal, that nobody knows about, exists, it couldnt be followed down to 100% according to the scanning mechanisms in the game. So, what sense would it make, to try to find one? Shocked
Ikonia
Royal Amarr Expeditions
#13 - 2012-04-25 14:01:18 UTC
Btw on Mios chart are some sites missing. As i only was flying over it Helix Nebula in Ladar is missing, the Mul Zalath sites are missing, Dirty Yard and many more i didnt see. But still great work on the chart.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#14 - 2012-04-25 14:45:04 UTC
Ikonia wrote:
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:
Also if you think the person behind the character Liliana Rahl has never explored, you make a false assumption. It's not me tho.


Somebody who is so obviously trolling and delivering nonsense must simply calculate in being considered as one who has never done exploring, especially when telling somebody he is completely wrong with his opinion, who is doing exactly what he described since before the exploration patch and that in all purposes sucessful.


Actually, I happen to know who the main behind Liliana Rahl is and I know that (s)he is an accomplished explorer and all the answers given are completely correct. You're just upset because (s)he called you out on your misinformed bad posting. From everything you've said, you seem to be the kind of person that completely ignores everyone else and sticks to your opinion no matter how many times you're proven wrong. Well, get over yourself.

And there really is such a thing as being good at probing. If you haven't experienced it yet, then you really haven't spent much time probing, because there is a very large amount of RL skill that comes into play.
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#15 - 2012-04-25 16:15:52 UTC
Ikonia wrote:


Most who have no idea about exploration, like the Liliana Troll above, talk about "...being good in probing" and such, simply identifying themselves as somebody who never has done exploration. There is no "good at probing". The results will always be the same for pro and starting explorers, both will see all singals at the maximum range always.

Cheers


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Jun Kuo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-04-26 00:02:46 UTC
I will add a new question with the same subject to the thread : exploration.

What level of combat would be required to solo cosmic signatures? The level ranges from Frigates to Battleships.
Diamonica Norya
Pro Synergy
#17 - 2012-04-26 00:21:09 UTC
Jun Kuo wrote:
I will add a new question with the same subject to the thread : exploration.

What level of combat would be required to solo cosmic signatures? The level ranges from Frigates to Battleships.


For the same band listed under St Mio's DSP signature table

DED 1,2/10 -> frig/destroyers T1, T2 (same band, ie, (faction pirate) hideout)

DED 3, 4/10 -> BC or below, T1, T2, T3 (same band, ie, (faction pirate) Lookout, Watch

(faction pirate) Vigil is on a band with lower strength but only BC and below again.

that's for highsec though, i'm pretty sure low-sec is different story.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#18 - 2012-04-26 05:55:55 UTC
Ikonia wrote:
Btw on Mios chart are some sites missing. As i only was flying over it Helix Nebula in Ladar is missing, the Mul Zalath sites are missing, Dirty Yard and many more i didnt see. But still great work on the chart.


Umm. There are definitely some missing gas clouds, but the BR 4/10 (Mul Zatah) is exactly where it should be in both high and low (.13 and .26 respectively). Dirty Site is on there as well (same band, or at least it is in low sec).
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-04-26 06:34:05 UTC
This is a terrible thread and you should all be ashamed.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#20 - 2012-04-26 06:37:19 UTC
St Mio wrote:
This is a terrible thread and you should all be ashamed.

Ugh Well, atleast I managed to get in one serious post before the whole thread went down the drain. I tried. lol
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