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Incursions rokh vs hyperion vs megathron
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Christopher Merchentson
Enlightened Enterprise
#1 - 2012-04-24 17:59:00 UTC
I realize that none of the ships are ideal for running incursions but I am going to be running it with a group of people who are not going to be flying shiny ships. If I had to choose one of above, which would make for the best vanguard site running?

Let's throw in navy meg in there as a secondary consideration as well.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2 - 2012-04-24 20:11:43 UTC
I would pick none of the above

if that is not an option

eeeeh i think i would go for the Rokh.. Megas are terribad.. Hyperions might be decent? I just don't know i haven't had any experience with them. But the Rokh is well.. Its usable.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Seleucus Ontuas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-04-24 20:38:43 UTC
I apologize ahead of time, but I'm on a computer that doesn't have the fits I have for these ships. Since you mentioned the Rokh, I'll go ahead and assume a shield fleet

When it comes down between the 3 ships, the Rokh gets the best tank and the longest range, the Hyperion gets the highest raw DPS, and the Mega/Navy Mega get the best tracking and the worst tank.

As I said before, the numbers I'm going to throw out are probably a bit off. It shouldn't be too much, but you'll want to mess around with fits

BLASTER
The Hyperion can work, the problem is that you need to move towards the spawns to hit anything. This gets even more annoying in Assaults. If I remember correctly from the fits I worked with, the Hyperion and Megathron simply cannot break 40KM range with Null (optimal + falloff). However, the Megathron can easily get to 1200 DPS with a full set of Garde IIs, and the Hyperion can get to around 1500 DPS again with 4 Garde IIs. These numbers, unfortunately, are assuming Void, which means a range of around 15KM (optimal + falloff), which you are not going to be using for most of the time. On the old VG OTAs, you could use Void for the first spawn, switch to Null for the second spawn, and then back to Void for the third one. I haven't flown enough of the new VGs to give you an ammo order. However, this ammo order pretty much means moving towards the first spawn and then getting closer to the battlestation to be able to hit the third spawn right away. Obviously, this is all rather irrelevant now.

The Rokh, on the other hand, can still up to 1000 DPS with Void, but gets a range of almost 30KM (optimal + falloff), and then a range of almost 65KM (optimal + falloff) with Null with a DPS of close to 700. With the 65KM range, you don't have to move unlike the Hyperion and Megathron, giving you a much different play style

With that all said, in my opinion, it comes down between the Hyperion and Rokh; I don't like the Mega's shield tank with only four slots. It also means you can equip any Tracking Computers to increase your optimal, not that you really need it with 7 (8 with Navy Mega) in the lows

RAILGUN
I don't use railguns, so I don't have any numbers here. When I first started flying, I was in a 425mm Railgun Mega, and with triple mag stab and triple tracking computer, I was somewhere around 500 DPS off the guns and hitting with a 40KM optimal with Antimatter and something like 50KM falloff. Obviously, unless you're sniping, it means you don't switch ammo. However, the problem with Rails is the fact you can't hit the Deltoles if they within 10KM and aren't like quadruple webbed, and you will hate NMCs and NCOs with a burning rage. You will only use a Rail Rokh for sniping in Assaults, and the tracking bonus is too useful to consider the Hyperion

tl;dr Blaster Rokh and Blaster Hyperion with Null is nice. If using Rails, use only a Mega/Navy Mega.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#4 - 2012-04-24 22:58:55 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
At the end of the day, it comes down to relay able dps application, that works on many ranges and gives you the choice to swap out tracking for range and the other way around if required. In this regards the rokh will come out on top in practical game play most of the time. If you like it, go amarr. The Nightmare, Paladin and Legion will give you the perfect tools for Incursions, by her higher range, ease to adapt range changes quickly and very good tracking @ range profile.

[Rokh, New Setup 1]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Photon Scattering Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
Stasis Webifier II

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L

Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator II
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Christopher Merchentson
Enlightened Enterprise
#5 - 2012-04-24 23:09:48 UTC
Thanks for the replies guys. Interestingly enough the eve university forums says the complete opposite. They say that the rokh is the worse and that megathron is the best.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#6 - 2012-04-24 23:37:34 UTC
That is only the case if you look at it from the min/max dps vs tracking in a armor tanking gang, assuming most stuff will be at close range(because it didn't bite the dust before coming in close). However this is the worst case scenario and quiet avoidable if you add ranged webs(huggin/loki or simply lots of faction webs with a offgrid booster) or ships that apply dps even at long ranges constant and smooth. Taking part in many blitz Legion gangs or doing Assualt+ with halve a dozend other Paladins will change your point of view away from being just a bit better at very small range windows towards how effective your are at every given range as a damage dealer.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Christopher Merchentson
Enlightened Enterprise
#7 - 2012-04-25 12:13:49 UTC
Okay one more question. Is it standard to use exclusively t2 and faction ammo throughout the entire vanguard? Does t1 ammo have a place? What is better for vanguards void or caldari navy anti matter? I would have thought the faction ammo since lots of smaller and moving targets.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#8 - 2012-04-25 14:24:35 UTC
Yes using faction and T2 ammo is vastly preferred, for speeding up sites.

Faction antimatter vs frigs sub 15km, Void against the BS/Cruisers in OTAs, Null for everything else(basically the ammo you will need the most).

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#9 - 2012-04-26 04:42:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Seleucus Ontuas wrote:


RAILGUN
I don't use railguns, so I don't have any numbers here. When I first started flying, I was in a 425mm Railgun Mega, and with triple mag stab and triple tracking computer, I was somewhere around 500 DPS off the guns and hitting with a 40KM optimal with Antimatter and something like 50KM falloff. Obviously, unless you're sniping, it means you don't switch ammo. However, the problem with Rails is the fact you can't hit the Deltoles if they within 10KM and aren't like quadruple webbed, and you will hate NMCs and NCOs with a burning rage. You will only use a Rail Rokh for sniping in Assaults, and the tracking bonus is too useful to consider the Hyperion

tl;dr Blaster Rokh and Blaster Hyperion with Null is nice. If using Rails, use only a Mega/Navy Mega.


This is not a problem with gallente conceptually as midrange dps is the dominix role, as is being able adjust to stuff getting under the sentries. Whether any FCs/pilots want to deal with upgraded ai and significant reliance on drone dps which gets shot at is another matter.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#10 - 2012-04-26 06:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Hyperion is really a better ship than the mega for this...more dps, and the TC on standard fits makes up for the lack of the tracking bonus somewhat. Also has more tank.

Though if you're running armor, the navythron is nice.

thhief ghabmoef
Christopher Merchentson
Enlightened Enterprise
#11 - 2012-04-26 20:01:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Merchentson
Final question gaiz. For rokh which would be the better fit? Three tracking computers or two tracking computers and a webber. With three tracking computers I can match megathrons tracking and have superior tank and optimal (bigger sig though). Or should I go with two tracking computers and a faction web? I'm able to reach megathron tracking with two tracking computers with tracking scripts and one tracking comp with no script I think but will have to check
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#12 - 2012-04-27 01:35:42 UTC
Faction web.

It doesn't stack with the TCs, it helps also other ships to hit your target, it makes you able to kill targets even without other webbing support(really nice in shield fleets, where webs are less common) and gives you the ability to spread webs for optimal performance(putting webs on the secondary, to already have them slowed down when the target switch happens).

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-04-27 06:05:07 UTC
Christopher Merchentson wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys. Interestingly enough the eve university forums says the complete opposite. They say that the rokh is the worse and that megathron is the best.


eve uni doesn't really do much of anything other then let people try incursions and the very basics of running them

♞
Seleucus Ontuas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-04-27 21:24:26 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Seleucus Ontuas wrote:


RAILGUN
I don't use railguns, so I don't have any numbers here. When I first started flying, I was in a 425mm Railgun Mega, and with triple mag stab and triple tracking computer, I was somewhere around 500 DPS off the guns and hitting with a 40KM optimal with Antimatter and something like 50KM falloff. Obviously, unless you're sniping, it means you don't switch ammo. However, the problem with Rails is the fact you can't hit the Deltoles if they within 10KM and aren't like quadruple webbed, and you will hate NMCs and NCOs with a burning rage. You will only use a Rail Rokh for sniping in Assaults, and the tracking bonus is too useful to consider the Hyperion

tl;dr Blaster Rokh and Blaster Hyperion with Null is nice. If using Rails, use only a Mega/Navy Mega.


This is not a problem with gallente conceptually as midrange dps is the dominix role, as is being able adjust to stuff getting under the sentries. Whether any FCs/pilots want to deal with upgraded ai and significant reliance on drone dps which gets shot at is another matter.


Conceptually, and PvPwise, I agree. But I haven't flown one in an incursion before because of my sub-optimal drone skills. Really nice for missioning, though.

As for 3 TCs or 2 + Web, I personally take 2 TCs and 1 TE with 3 MagStab. I don't use a web, instead I put an extender for more tank. If I had to choose between 2 TCs + Web or 3 TCs, I think it would depend on whether there was a OGB with skirmish links.