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New Dev Blog: What is going on with mineral prices?

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fenistil
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-04-23 11:28:32 UTC
Mineral price changes are all good. This is EVE, a sendbox game, things happen which is community driven in most cases.

One thing I would like CCP to pay attention to:
- Have the insurance prices follow the mineral prices more closely.
A rupture is around 13mill atm, insurance pays out 5.5mill.

.
Lifelongnoob
State War Academy
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-04-23 12:52:21 UTC
Orion Sebestes wrote:
Please don't use 3 super high-rez images in one post... it makes scrolling painful


invest in a better computer
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#63 - 2012-04-23 13:17:16 UTC
Neo Agricola wrote:

Good bye Drakes for 34 Mil, Hello Drake for 100 -120 Mil...


That's a bit over the top. In order for a Drake to hit 100-120M, the following would have to happen:

Veld 360 Scor 325 Pyro 396 Plag 312 Omb 274 Kern 372 Jasp 450 Hemo 538 Hedb 552
Gneiss 360 DarkO 517 Spod 221 Croc 722 Bist 703 Ark 812
Trit 12 Pye 15 Mex 100 Iso 250 Nocx 1500 Zyd 3600 Mega 6000 Morph 18000

Which would give a Drake build cost of about 97M ISK/u.

At those prices, a solo hulk pilot in hi-sec would be making 32-34M/hr. Add in gang bonuses from the orca and you're looking at 55M/hr (104M/hr in null-sec off of ABCs). Which might happen short-term, but would not be sustainable.

Probable target for hi-sec solo hulk mining (90k m3/hr) is going to be around 20M/hr long-term, as long as CCP keeps banning the bots. Out in null-sec, I'd expect something around 45-50M/hr (90k m3/hr). That puts the price of hi-sec Tritanium at around 7 ISK/u.
VaMei
Meafi Corp
#64 - 2012-04-23 14:11:29 UTC  |  Edited by: VaMei
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
...which might happen short-term, but would not be sustainable.


What will be 'sustainable' is really hard to tell. Once apon a time, miners were getting 80-100M/hr on ABCM. That was before there were any of the big isk fountains we see today. The biggest isk fountain back then was either chaining hi-end belt rats or running 4s in unrigged Tech 1 BSes; and that wouldn't get you 100M/hr.

If CCP can keep the presure on the bots, it'll all come down to one question: How much do we need to pay in order to persuade enough people to satisfy demand for minerals, rather than farming incursions, anomolies or missions for a living?
Each player is going to balance 'fun' vs isk/hr and do what they choose to do. As long as isk farming outpaces mineral supply, mineral prices should keep climbing if the economy is actually working.

Edit: I understand that there are limits to player mobility in terms of skills (and willingness) to do other jobs, but the grass has to get green enough to convince people to cross the fence.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2012-04-23 15:13:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Add new features as isksinks like buying remaps from NPCs !!!

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Drei Ontalas
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-04-23 18:59:48 UTC
If mining were a safer profession, would this not encourage players (particularly new players) to mine, thus increasing supply?
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-04-23 20:40:04 UTC
If by "safer" you mean sitting in a belt with your very own pet CONCORD fleet, probably not, it would just make it more likely for people to leave an indy mining all day while they're at work, or to pull ice while doing chores even if the system's busy.

If by "safer" you mean full-on mining ops (miners in mining ships, haulers in hauling ships, guards in combat ships) becoming worthwhile because the prices on stuff you can't readily pull in hi-sec have grown to the point where it's worth cutting down on miners (to man the escort ships) AND there's a decent reason for the escorts to sit around for hours "just in case" instead of get bored and leave or get bored and blow up the fleet themselves (especilly if we're talking hired guards), yeah you'd get more mining because it'd overall end up being lucrative and at least not completely soul-crushingly boring. That'd be *really* hard to do currently, though, especially in lowsec which is where the real increase in activity is needed, because it would be unfortunate to just bloc up another region of space.
Toawa
EVE Mercantile Exchange
#68 - 2012-04-24 01:22:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Toawa
Ultimately, what we need is another tier of mining ship. As the population grows, it consumes more minerals. While it's true that the population growth includes growth in the miner population, it would seem that it's not enough to offset the increase in mineral usage.

For a bit of comparison, let's look at the current mining ships. This is done with EFT, at all skills V, without ganglink support. (The coming addition of CPU rigs will affect the lower ships slightly

Tier 1: Burst, w/ 2 miner 2's: 375 m3/mi
Tier 2: Scythe, w/ 3 miner 2's and 1 MU2: 613 m3/min (+63% increase)
Tier 3: Covetor, w/ 3 SM2's and 1 MU2: 1146 m3/min (+87%)
Tier 4: Hulk, w/ 3 SM2's and 2 MU2's: 1436 m3/min (+25%)

With full implant and ganglink support, these numbers can be increased by about 87%)

While total mineral production will go up based on the number of miners, mining remains one of the least liked activities (see FF 2012 economy video). The current group of miners will not be able to provide the required minerals at the rate that is needed; and in the EVE world, you can't count on higher ore values to increase the number of miners as much as needed. While in the real world, higher ore demand would translate to higher wages for miners, which would increase interest, in EVE it's possible (and probably more likely) that high ore demand (and the higher ship/module prices that result) will result in people leaving the game).

TL;DR
We need a fifth tier of mining ships, probably with an average (without implants or links) mining rate of at least 2200 m3/min or so (~53% increase).

PS
Highsec ore compression would be nice too, but I'm not holding my breath. (You could make the BPO's take 20 minutes per block and give rorq's a -95% time bonus).

Edit: For some reason, it ate my punctuation ShockedUgh
Just Barry
TouchMySaurus Holding
#69 - 2012-04-24 01:45:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Just Barry
CCP are stupid. supporting the rich and elite and screwing the little guy, just widening the gap even more.

****s
Frosteye
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-04-24 04:08:41 UTC
Toawa wrote:
Ultimately, what we need is another tier of mining ship. As the population grows, it consumes more minerals. While it's true that the population growth includes growth in the miner population, it would seem that it's not enough to offset the increase in mineral usage.

For a bit of comparison, let's look at the current mining ships. This is done with EFT, at all skills V, without ganglink support. (The coming addition of CPU rigs will affect the lower ships slightly

Tier 1: Burst, w/ 2 miner 2's: 375 m3/mi
Tier 2: Scythe, w/ 3 miner 2's and 1 MU2: 613 m3/min (+63% increase)
Tier 3: Covetor, w/ 3 SM2's and 1 MU2: 1146 m3/min (+87%)
Tier 4: Hulk, w/ 3 SM2's and 2 MU2's: 1436 m3/min (+25%)

With full implant and ganglink support, these numbers can be increased by about 87%)

While total mineral production will go up based on the number of miners, mining remains one of the least liked activities (see FF 2012 economy video). The current group of miners will not be able to provide the required minerals at the rate that is needed; and in the EVE world, you can't count on higher ore values to increase the number of miners as much as needed. While in the real world, higher ore demand would translate to higher wages for miners, which would increase interest, in EVE it's possible (and probably more likely) that high ore demand (and the higher ship/module prices that result) will result in people leaving the game).

TL;DR
We need a fifth tier of mining ships, probably with an average (without implants or links) mining rate of at least 2200 m3/min or so (~53% increase).

PS
Highsec ore compression would be nice too, but I'm not holding my breath. (You could make the BPO's take 20 minutes per block and give rorq's a -95% time bonus).

Edit: For some reason, it ate my punctuation ShockedUgh



Your post actually drug my butt in here because I thought it was one of the most thought out responses to mining I have seen in awhile.

I agree 100%. We need a 5th tier miner. It would help bring Hulks down and help with Supply and demand (demand which has grown with increased players but not been addressed by CCP per say with bulk amounts of minerals). Yes we can get more ABCM in Wormholes now but like most 0.0 residents and Scrapyard Bob pointed out, Trit prices (i.e. bulk minerals) in 0.0 especially need love. People talk about a super high density Veld...I am with you man....

A bigger mining ship for Miners. We have ORCA's for HS and Rorqs for all else, why not a better miner.

CCP needs to take heart on your post.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#71 - 2012-04-24 12:14:39 UTC
You don't need a new mining ship, what you do need is for the Procurer to be brought up to useful levels (you know, the barge that everyone says "don't bother with"). Then you can bump the retty up slightly, bump the covetor up slightly and bump the hulk up slightly.

The procurer suffers primarily from only having 1 high slot instead of matching up with the 2 slots that the retty has.

The covetor, retty, hulk set mostly suffer from way too little PG, slightly too little CPU and a lack of low-mid slots (all of them could use 1-2 more mids and 1-2 more lows).

Not needing a new hull design means you don't get stuck in the art department bottleneck, which would push your "new" ship back about 15-20 months.
IceGuerilla
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2012-04-24 16:28:27 UTC
Hey, how is GUP per capita worked out? If it's per paying account, does that mean that there are 500k active accounts?
Toawa
EVE Mercantile Exchange
#73 - 2012-04-24 18:49:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Toawa
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
You don't need a new mining ship, what you do need is for the Procurer to be brought up to useful levels (you know, the barge that everyone says "don't bother with"). Then you can bump the retty up slightly, bump the covetor up slightly and bump the hulk up slightly.

The procurer suffers primarily from only having 1 high slot instead of matching up with the 2 slots that the retty has.

The covetor, retty, hulk set mostly suffer from way too little PG, slightly too little CPU and a lack of low-mid slots (all of them could use 1-2 more mids and 1-2 more lows).

Not needing a new hull design means you don't get stuck in the art department bottleneck, which would push your "new" ship back about 15-20 months.


The problem with this, is that all the medslots in the world don't increase your mining rate. They might make it easier to survive gankfests but that just saves your ship; if your in the middle of Hulkageddon, you're not going to be mining anyway. More low slots could (if you add more MU's) but they increase CPU needs so much that you'd need to up CPU by more than a little.

And the reason no one uses the Procurer is because the Retriever mines twice as much and can be achieved within a couple of days of achieving the Procurer. The exhumers avoided this by giving different bonuses to the three ships. However, my original point still stands; we need another tier of mining ship (T3 miners? Blink) which mine more per ship than the current highest tier. The same number of people need to be able to mine more than they are now.

(Or at least new mining modules; you don't necessarily need new hulls, new modules would work. Hey, maybe midslot modules which give a bonus to mining certain ores?)
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-04-26 19:39:38 UTC  |  Edited by: betoli
Toawa wrote:


The problem with this, is that all the medslots in the world don't increase your mining rate. They might make it easier to survive gankfests but that just saves your ship; if your in the middle of Hulkageddon, you're not going to be mining anyway. More low slots could (if you add more MU's) but they increase CPU needs so much that you'd need to up CPU by more than a little.

And the reason no one uses the Procurer is because the Retriever mines twice as much and can be achieved within a couple of days of achieving the Procurer. The exhumers avoided this by giving different bonuses to the three ships. However, my original point still stands; we need another tier of mining ship (T3 miners? Blink) which mine more per ship than the current highest tier. The same number of people need to be able to mine more than they are now.

(Or at least new mining modules; you don't necessarily need new hulls, new modules would work. Hey, maybe midslot modules which give a bonus to mining certain ores?)


I'm not sure I buy this. Yes you can equilibriate mineral production with more capacity on ships - but you could also increase mineral production by opening up new opportunities for interesting mining careers. At present, HS is the best option, and its boring as hell. Skills max out after a mere 3 months and you've already achieved the top class ship. Change that and you might find more people mine. Make LS and 0.0 viable for miners who want more (but realistically more profitable) challenges. Changes to ships yes - but not much buffed rates.
Kranuk
Eveville Empire
#75 - 2012-04-27 17:54:02 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Add new features as isksinks like buying remaps from NPCs !!!


I support this service! I'd even like to see a way to buy a skill respec. Many new players develop a buncha mining skills before moving into other things (that ccp wants them to do like pvp). It'd be great to change your skill distribution.
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
#76 - 2012-04-29 00:03:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Haifisch Zahne
REMOVED TO PROTEST CCP's Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP").
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2012-04-30 15:35:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaru Ishiwara
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
... interesting commentary on CCP's self-serving economist-speak....

I think at the heart of the matter though is PLEX. This doesn't take a rocket scientist. CCP is in the business of selling PLEX. At 100K PLEX sold per month on the market in the few last months, up from a mere trickle, CCP is now pulling in well over $1M per month selling PLEX. Does CCP want PLEX to cost 500M ISK? No, it reduces demand because you get so much more ISK. People buy PLEX with their real life money to turn into ISK. CCP is committed to reducing inflation to increase PLEX demand.
I am completely on-board with you regarding PLEX is CCP's cash cow. But I want to present an alternate take on CCP's "commitment to reduce inflaction" where perhaps CCP is ok with inflation as more people feel like they need to buy PLEX (or GTCs) with RL cash in order to afford stuff in-game.

In my small world of null-sec PvP, just about *everything* has skyrocketed up in price by 25 - 100% which means that:

1) I spend more time on alts doing X activities in order to earn more ISK simply to maintain my existing caliber of ship types, implants and consumables.

2) Buy GTCs and sell them for ISK (the lawn mower argument where it is more efficient to mow your neighbor's lawn for $$$ and buy GTCs then it is to PvE for ISK).

3) I live with existing income levels and buy "lesser" gear in order to still participate with my mates.

Edit: 4) I let my subscriptions lapse for a while and play something else while the markets settle out from CCP's repeated and exaggerated manipulations.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
Logicycle
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#78 - 2012-05-04 18:02:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Logicycle
What going on with mineral prices?

CCP Removed a major supply of Minerals (Drones). Replaced it with yet another big fat faucet of isk.Sad

Fail.
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2012-05-05 02:21:49 UTC
Logicycle wrote:
What going on with mineral prices?

CCP Removed a major supply of Minerals (Drones). Replaced it with yet another big fat faucet of isk.Sad

Fail.

Yup. Unlike those who ***** about PI and Moon goo being ISK faucets (they are commodity faucets), this poster is right on the money. Regions of space have now become viable for ratting bounty bot farms.

Well-done, CCP. Well-done.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#80 - 2012-05-09 23:50:53 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Dr E I have a question for you concerning one of the charts you showed in fanfest 2012
http://d35dgn2pdc8wsn.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/06.jpg
in the same graph later it was written that 5% of Eve plyers were running incursions. Isn't 5% of 800k characters actually closer to 40,000 characters not 20,000?
Only thing I can think of is its the number of active characters...

Would you happen to have simular numbers for the number of characters running Wormhole sleeper PvE sites? Big smile
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'