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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Sub forum exclusively for paying customers

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-04-23 09:20:48 UTC
What if I just happen to notice one day that I have an awful lot of isk I'm not using, and plex my account a few times to save money? Do I lose access to the forums?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#22 - 2012-04-23 09:24:17 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
No, they do not. The people who buy GTCs and who sell them in game as PLEX do. It is these players who shall be heard, and without the voices of those who cannot afford to pay for the game.

And if richer players didn't buy PLEX with ISK, poorer players wouldn't have bought PLEX with real money. The PLEX market would crash, and everyone would return to paying CCP directly or RMTing.

Whitehound wrote:
CCP is a company and as such needs to make money and have a growth. While giving everyone a voice here on the forum, which you will continue to have, should one also respect the interests of CCP as a company. I, as a paying costumer then do not wish to be treated like a "cashcow" or a "freeloader" by CCP only to be forced to voice my opinion with my wallet in the end.

This is the point you don't understand, the PLEX market is a massive source of income for CCP, especially since they get slightly more from those buying plex than from those paying by direct debit.

The fact that you aren't smart enough to buy PLEX with in game money, doesn't mean you have some innate understanding of Eve's core game mechanic's, or that you are more interested in what is "good for the game". Conversely, I'd argue that those among us too stupid to earn large amounts of ISK probably have a much weaker understanding of the game, and their opinion is probably of less value.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Whitehound
#23 - 2012-04-23 09:32:04 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
What if I just happen to notice one day that I have an awful lot of isk I'm not using, and plex my account a few times to save money? Do I lose access to the forums?

Yes. You will have to take this into consideration when you want to stop paying CCP for their game and instead choose to play for free.

An alternative for you could be to create an alt account with your ISKs/PLEX, but keep paying for at least one (your main) account and thereby to keep your voice on such a particular sub forum.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Whitehound
#24 - 2012-04-23 09:34:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Simi Kusoni wrote:
This is the point you don't understand, the PLEX market is a massive source of income for CCP, especially since they get slightly more from those buying plex than from those paying by direct debit.

Nothing about PLEX would change. It would keep giving CCP money. It is about creating a sub forum with limited access. It is not going to affect your game in a bad way. Only the people who pay for the game can cause the game harm and therefore should be recognized and heard exclusively in such a sub forum.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#25 - 2012-04-23 09:42:17 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Nothing about PLEX would change. It would keep giving CCP money. It is about creating a sub forum with limited access. It is not going to affect your game in a bad way. Only the people who pay for the game can cause the game harm and therefore should be recognized and heard exclusively in a special sub forum.

You just don't get it do you.

What happens if we who buy lots of PLEX, stop buying PLEX? The price of PLEX plummits? You space poor guys stop buying it, thereby paying less money to CCP, and CCP is hurt.

We are buying game time, and we are buying it through you. If I were to unsub the six accounts I pay for with PLEX, and leave only my main, this is not "good" for CCP. We drive the PLEX market, the PLEX market makes CCP money.

Understanding yet?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#26 - 2012-04-23 09:57:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Whitehound wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Also, you do realise that people who use plex actually net CCP more income?

No, they do not. The people who buy GTCs and who sell them in game as PLEX do. It is these players who shall be heard, and without the voices of those who cannot afford to pay for the game. CCP is a company and as such needs to make money and have a growth. While giving everyone a voice here on the forum, which you will continue to have, should one also respect the interests of CCP as a company. I, as a paying costumer then do not wish to be treated like a "cashcow" or a "freeloader" by CCP only to be forced to voice my opinion with my wallet in the end.



1 If we don't buy your plex, you have no one to sell them to
2 subscriptions are cheaper than using plex

Those two combined means that us plex subs are GOOD for EVE while also being good for you as you wouldn't be able to buy isk otherwise, and would probably turn to RMT. You really don't understand how this whole thing works. Then again, looking at your BC entries you don't seem to understand the game as a whole.

Stop voicing your thoughts.
Whitehound
#27 - 2012-04-23 10:25:32 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
1 If we don't buy your plex, you have no one to sell them to
2 subscriptions are cheaper than using plex

Those two combined means that us plex subs are GOOD for EVE while also being good for you as you wouldn't be able to buy isk otherwise, and would probably turn to RMT. You really don't understand how this whole thing works. Then again, looking at your BC entries you don't seem to understand the game as a whole.

Stop voicing your thoughts.

Why not buy a subscription when they are cheaper than PLEX? The answer is simple. You do not want to pay at all, but you want others to pay it for you. You do not care that those who allow you to play for free have to pay more for it than a subscriber does, but it serves you as an argument for your own cause, which is to get as much for free as possible. This is the kind of attitude I wish to see being shut out by having a sub forum for paying customers only.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#28 - 2012-04-23 10:42:26 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
1 If we don't buy your plex, you have no one to sell them to
2 subscriptions are cheaper than using plex

Those two combined means that us plex subs are GOOD for EVE while also being good for you as you wouldn't be able to buy isk otherwise, and would probably turn to RMT. You really don't understand how this whole thing works. Then again, looking at your BC entries you don't seem to understand the game as a whole.

Stop voicing your thoughts.

Why not buy a subscription when they are cheaper than PLEX? The answer is simple. You do not want to pay at all, but you want others to pay it for you. You do not care that those who allow you to play for free have to pay more for it than a subscriber does, but it serves you as an argument for your own cause, which is to get as much for free as possible. This is the kind of attitude I wish to see being shut out by having a sub forum for paying customers only.


God you're dumb and annoying. Time to do an activity check on your whole alliance.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#29 - 2012-04-23 10:45:21 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
1 If we don't buy your plex, you have no one to sell them to
2 subscriptions are cheaper than using plex

Those two combined means that us plex subs are GOOD for EVE while also being good for you as you wouldn't be able to buy isk otherwise, and would probably turn to RMT. You really don't understand how this whole thing works. Then again, looking at your BC entries you don't seem to understand the game as a whole.

Stop voicing your thoughts.

Why not buy a subscription when they are cheaper than PLEX? The answer is simple. You do not want to pay at all, but you want others to pay it for you. You do not care that those who allow you to play for free have to pay more for it than a subscriber does, but it serves you as an argument for your own cause, which is to get as much for free as possible. This is the kind of attitude I wish to see being shut out by having a sub forum for paying customers only.

And you do not want to play the game, and earn ISK like the rest of us. This is exactly the kind of attitude I would like to see shut out of the game.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Whitehound
#30 - 2012-04-23 10:50:41 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
And you do not want to play the game, and earn ISK like the rest of us. This is exactly the kind of attitude I would like to see shut out of the game.

What makes you say that? I have ISKs and I pay for a subscription.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#31 - 2012-04-23 10:52:51 UTC
You never answered my question. Why should I be excluded for choosing to use plex?

Either you're a decent troll, or someone who lacks a fundamental understanding of how the whole system works.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Whitehound
#32 - 2012-04-23 10:56:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
You never answered my question. Why should I be excluded for choosing to use plex?

I did answer your question. You are being excluded because of the choice you make. It is a concept we are all very familiar with.

Answer me a question, what does money mean to you and why do you choose not to give some to CCP?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Whitehound
#33 - 2012-04-23 12:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Vilnius Zar wrote:
God you're dumb and annoying.

I get that you are being mad, but you should have some more trust in those players who pay for their game. Before there was PLEX were there only paying players and without them would EVE not have grown to a size to all for a free-to-play. What reasons do you really have to hate them?

If it is of any value to you then know that I do not buy PLEX with ISKs nor do I speculate with PLEX to make more ISKs, but that I stick entirely to my subscription. I leave PLEX to those who like to play for free and take no advantage of these players through market manipulations.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-04-23 12:18:32 UTC
Quote:
why do you choose not to give some to CCP?


Because I know CCP is getting its money anyway.
If I paid $15 for a one month sub, then someone doesn't pay $17 for a plex to sell to me.

Some people like PvPing in faction BS's, (or whatever other reason, maybe having a T2 BPO and a Titan fleet gives them a hardon), and need ISK, lots of it. I help supply that ISK to them.
If people like me didn't plex, they wouldn't be buying Plex. They then wouldn't be able to play the game the way they want to.
They would either turn to RMT (where someone other than CCP gets their money), which would eventually get them banned, or they would stop playing.
CCP would go from having
* 1 person paying $15 per month + $17 for a PLEX to sell, to having one of the following:

* Best case scenario: 2 players paying $15 per month
* 1 Player paying $15 per month, the Plex seller quite because he doesn't want to do the ISK making things, he wants to use expensive stuff he could only afford by selling PLEX
* 1 player paying $15 per month, the PLEX buyer quit because IRL he's on a budget, and his wife/GF targetted his "space WOW" as the first thing to get cut)
* 0 players, PLEX seller quit because he couldn't play the way he wanted, PLEX buyer quite because he couldn't justify payng $180 per year for a game

Which scenario is best for CCP?
Oh, I know you'll suggest the PLEX seller can just directly pay for in game ISK
* It screws up the ingame economy as ISK is being created, not transfered - It is not set by the "free market" - but fixed by CCP, one of the draws of EVE is the player driven economy - EVE is derided as Pay-To-Win - subscriptions plummet - congratulations, you just killed EVE

PLEX is one thing EVE did right... I'm considering stopping PLEXing, simply because coming up with >1 billion ISK each month is getting to be a bit hard given my time constraints (and I took a break from incursioning after CCP's server gank resulted in the loss of my nightmare, they reimbursed the ship and destroyed modules upon a petition, but I still lost half a Billion in modules, plus the Incursioning had gotten my corp some nuisance wardecs, and I became a gank target in my home system, so my incursion boat+fitting has been a hangar queen for the last month or two).

When I had time earlier, I was becoming space rich even as I stockpiled 10 PLEXes, and had 3 faction BS's, and multiple faction Frigs + deadspace and faction modules.
Now my "new additions" have slowed to a halt, and I find myself just trying to maintain my PLEX stockpile.

Paying *too much* for PLEX might be bad for CCP, as the seller may get all the ISK they want from.. lets say 4 plexes instead of 5 - they thus pay CCP less.
PLEX is self regulating, and gets CCP more money.

So, you are asking me why I participate in a system that gets CCP more money than if I didn't participate, and then telling me that its a sign I don't care about the game.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#35 - 2012-04-23 12:31:35 UTC
why do you think that "paying customers" are better posters?

What did trick you into the belief someone who recently paid his trial account can compete with people playing for years and earned enough ISK to pay their accounts with, in terms of their posting quality?
Whitehound
#36 - 2012-04-23 12:48:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Robert Caldera wrote:
What did trick you into the belief someone who recently paid his trial account can compete with people playing for years and earned enough ISK to pay their accounts with, in terms of their posting quality?

Why should a veteran not pay for his game when it means something to him?

Veterans with a lot of ISKs, who have stopped paying for EVE, have placed CCP into a tricky spot in the first place. CCP needs to listen to the economy before everything else and when the money then only comes from rookies what reasons then remain to treat such veterans like paying customers?

Robert Caldera wrote:
why do you think that "paying customers" are better posters?

It is a suspicion I have based on the fact that when Incarna came out a lot of players stopped their subscriptions and CCP admitted not to be listening enough to us. I cannot prove my suspicion without first creating such a sub forum. I believe that the amount of players who now can play for free have skewed the picture and turned all of us into cashcows and freeloaders. It lacks a distinction between who is paying and who is not. It will not stop people from posting nonsense, but it will allow CCP to see a difference, when there is one, between paying and non-paying players and make better decisions.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#37 - 2012-04-23 13:18:13 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Why should a veteran not pay for his game when it means something to him?

Veterans with a lot of ISKs, who have stopped paying for EVE, have placed CCP into a tricky spot in the first place. CCP needs to listen to the economy before everything else and when the money then only comes from rookies what reasons then remain to treat such veterans like paying customers?

CCP is not in a "tricky spot", the money comes "only from rookies", who pay for a service that results in wealth being redistributed from richer, smarter players. Were PLEX to be removed, the poor players would merely turn to RMT. Or they'd quit because they can't afford x,y,z and aren't patient enough to grind for it.

Besides, you're wrong in your assumption that only rookies buy plex, and that only vets can afford them. Plenty of "young" players can afford plex, and plenty of older ones are too stupid or lazy to have worked out how to make a decent amount of ISK yet.

And for another thing, you fail to understand the nature of plex. If poor players didn't buy plex, rich players wouldn't spend real money on it. If rich players unsubscribe from Eve, poor players stop buying and selling plex. If rich players unsubscribe from Eve, CCP loses money.

Are you understanding this yet?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#38 - 2012-04-23 13:22:19 UTC
The OP is proof that having money does not make one a useful poster.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#39 - 2012-04-23 13:33:54 UTC
Whitehound wrote:

Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Toasting in horrible elitist idea thread.

Paying with money for a game you like is now elitist?

Seeing the other "arguments" against the idea gives a small picture of what we might get rid off when we would have such a sub forum.

Great profiling, bro. I do not pay for my subscription with PLEX, regardless of how bad you may think my posting is.

The only thing this idea would get rid of is the stupid posts claiming that Eve is F2P, and that if you pay for it you are doing it wrong. Those posts are few enough that fracturing the community over them really isn't worth it.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Whitehound
#40 - 2012-04-23 13:37:16 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Besides, you're wrong in your assumption that only rookies buy plex, and that only vets can afford them. Plenty of "young" players can afford plex, and plenty of older ones are too stupid or lazy to have worked out how to make a decent amount of ISK yet.

And for another thing, you fail to understand the nature of plex. If poor players didn't buy plex, rich players wouldn't spend real money on it. If rich players unsubscribe from Eve, poor players stop buying and selling plex. If rich players unsubscribe from Eve, CCP loses money.

Are you understanding this yet?

The assumption you are talking off was a response to Robert Caldera, who mixed player experience with money. It simply does not mix and any logic based on it will fail. How PLEX works or even if I fail to understand it is of no relevance for creating a sub forum. Try not too read too much into it. It still is only a suggestion to create a sub forum exclusively for paying customers.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.