These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Defender Missiles

Author
Iceman10117
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#1 - 2012-04-22 18:14:22 UTC
I was thinking about the idea of the rebalancing of the (useless) defender missiles. The only ships that use them are the rats. How about buffing them a little bit and give them some new properties that make them useful. Imagine a fleet warps in and "deploys" a drake itted with defender missiles. The defender missiles kill at least some of the incoming missiles and protects his fleet of some of the incoming damage. The defender missiles should also be able to shoot missiles agressing his fleet / corpmates.

Greetings Ice
Smart Azz
Zero Mass Enterprises
#2 - 2012-04-22 18:26:04 UTC
In an ideal world this would work, however imagine the coding issues and the sheer amount of metal in the air it would have to distinguish from in the larger fights.

Honestly they should just remove them
Mark Androcius
#3 - 2012-04-22 18:32:29 UTC
Well a purpose fit ship, with only 1 task ( to shoot as many missiles out of the sky ) is not such a bad idea.
Coding for it is not that hard either, the server is constantly aware what is out there, where it is going and who it came from.
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-04-22 19:22:09 UTC
Does this include STDs???

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.

Mark Androcius
#5 - 2012-04-22 20:32:05 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
Does this include STDs???


Sexual Transmitted Diseases?
I hope not.
Yatama Kautsuo
Tencus
#6 - 2012-04-22 20:39:05 UTC
Mark Androcius wrote:
Pok Nibin wrote:
Does this include STDs???


Sexual Transmitted Diseases?
I hope not.


i had to laugh. good job sir. allthough i am so new i don't even now what STDs are supposed to be Oops
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-04-22 21:31:19 UTC
A very simple and easy fix would be to introduce specialized "Defender launchers" with very easy fitting requirements and the added benefit that they would not count as weapons, and thus could be placed in utility highslots without sacrifing firepower.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.

Baljos Arnjak
Dark Praetorian Order
#8 - 2012-04-22 22:43:37 UTC
Mark Androcius wrote:
Well a purpose fit ship, with only 1 task ( to shoot as many missiles out of the sky ) is not such a bad idea.
Coding for it is not that hard either, the server is constantly aware what is out there, where it is going and who it came from.


While what you say is true, coding for that wouldn't be too difficult, BUT it would be very CPU intensive and that leads to more lag or higher TiDi percentages and very unhappy hamsters. Each defender missile would need to have a small AI running that determines what that missile should do. It would go something like this:

Are any missiles targeting my parent ship? You'd have to look at the parent ship's data and see which missiles have it targeted (should be communicated when someone opens fire with missiles and stored in your ship data).
Yes - Calculate the distance to each one and target the closest one.
No - Next step.
Are any missiles targeting members of my fleet? For this you'd have to query every ship in your fleet and make a list of all potential targets which could be thousands in large fights.
Yes - Evaluate each potential target to find the best one to go after (is it in range, is it the closest one, etc). Then target that one.
No - Keep looking for targets eg: start the process over.

If this were to be implemented, London would be a wasteland because CCP's server farm would go nuclear. It's a cool idea, but not really feasible.
Tyson Gallane
Political Warfare Executive
#9 - 2012-04-22 23:15:00 UTC
A further issue would be: Even if they could do it, would it be a good idea?

Do missiles need another nerf in PvP?

Imortal valkyrie
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-04-22 23:55:41 UTC
Hac fleet engages drake fleet.
Hac fleet has brought 10 "defender drakes" or other ships filled with defenders.
Hac fleet wins

Depending on how effective they became It would render certain fleet types useless, then again it would stop drake blobs and reduce lag caused by missiles.

I'm wondering if they could do something to combat drones, such as have the ability to detect incoming missiles and attempt to intercept them when set to orbit your ship. Then take defender missiles out of the game as they are no longer needed.
This way yes missiles get a nerf but at the cost of some drones not being used for dps, resulting in a fleet not taking as much missile damage but also losing valuable dps themselves. Just an idea.

Raevyn Enderas > wasn't it Jerky Boys where they were talking about blasting someone in the ass with a vasoline potato?

Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-04-23 00:03:42 UTC
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
A very simple and easy fix would be to introduce specialized "Defender launchers" with very easy fitting requirements and the added benefit that they would not count as weapons, and thus could be placed in utility highslots without sacrifing firepower.



This would turn Faction ships into monsters. 2 high slots pumping out defender missiles and your hard points pumping out DPS.

No caldari/drake pilot would ever go anywhere near them
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-04-23 01:41:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
I think this would be a good idea. However, FoF missiles need a buff as well to counter such ships. Logically speaking, because no clear trajectory can be determined, Defender missiles will be less effective against ships using FoF missiles.

FoF missiles wouldn't be as strong as regular missiles, but should be a viable option.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#13 - 2012-04-23 01:56:12 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
I think this would be a good idea. However, FoF missiles need a buff as well to counter such ships. Logically speaking, because no clear trajectory can be determined, Defender missiles will be less effective against ships using FoF missiles.

FoF missiles wouldn't be as strong as regular missiles, but should be a viable option.


Don't FoF missiles have a nasty habit of hitting your friends in the process?

Adapt or Die

ASuperVillain
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-04-23 07:12:42 UTC
Ahh the lowly Defender,
I think the T2 defender need to be re-envisioned, the best comparison would be to draw from literature, the Reality Dysfunction series was a hard Sci-Fi space opera, well, at least till the dead started coming back... But it had at least one huge space battle, which was accomplished by combat 'wasps' self-contained deployed smart networked weapon/defense missiles. Essentially cruise missiles packed with as much whiz-bang firepower as possible, that didn't JUST go boom, but marshaled its firepower strategically, spitting out pulsars, nukes, ecm, kinetics and when expended THEN going boom.

So the "new" T2 defender might be coded more as attacking all missiles in space at once? Damage distance dependent? Are the missiles tracked in relation to one another on the servers? So that a HUGE "explosion" radius and speed would be effective but only missiles damaged? Perhaps having someone targeted would allow you to do shoot downs on their missiles? Something that just plain doesn't SUCK, perhaps a little OP even, since defenders have sucked since, well forever?

'... oh man, don't bother with Drake fleets we got locked down by 2 kestrals flying with those T2 defenders we scored 0 dps...'

Now I exaggerate for dramatic license. But anything in EvE needs a little love it’s the defender.

-ASV
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-04-23 07:16:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Degren
They wanted to propose a new destroyer.

Slap some defender missiles on the new caldari destroyer, some anti-projectile, anti-hybrid, anti-lasers on the min, gall, amarr versions, respectively.

Reduce incoming shots from each source by one (8 turrets effectively becomes 7, or y'know...maybe more? I'm not a dev!). Larger the fleet they go against, the stronger these dinky little ships become.

Or y'know..just get rid of 'em.

Buffing them without adding other anti-weapon weapons would just be a missile nerf.

Hello, hello again.

Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-04-23 08:38:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmy Zeta
Baljos Arnjak wrote:
Mark Androcius wrote:
Well a purpose fit ship, with only 1 task ( to shoot as many missiles out of the sky ) is not such a bad idea.
Coding for it is not that hard either, the server is constantly aware what is out there, where it is going and who it came from.


While what you say is true, coding for that wouldn't be too difficult, BUT it would be very CPU intensive and that leads to more lag or higher TiDi percentages and very unhappy hamsters. Each defender missile would need to have a small AI running that determines what that missile should do. It would go something like this:

Are any missiles targeting my parent ship? You'd have to look at the parent ship's data and see which missiles have it targeted (should be communicated when someone opens fire with missiles and stored in your ship data).
Yes - Calculate the distance to each one and target the closest one.
No - Next step.
Are any missiles targeting members of my fleet? For this you'd have to query every ship in your fleet and make a list of all potential targets which could be thousands in large fights.
Yes - Evaluate each potential target to find the best one to go after (is it in range, is it the closest one, etc). Then target that one.
No - Keep looking for targets eg: start the process over.

If this were to be implemented, London would be a wasteland because CCP's server farm would go nuclear. It's a cool idea, but not really feasible.

Well, EVE is a game, not a NASA-simulation. You could make the whole process much easier on the CPU by sacrificing a little realism in favour of performance:
1. Activating the Defender launcher gives a (hidden) buff to all friendly ships in Defender range (one buff per launcher)
2. Does a buffed ship receive missile damage? If yes, remove one stack of the defender buff (will be up again with the next cycle of your defender launchers) and reduce total missile damage by about 15%.
3. if 2. is triggered, let the local clients play a beautiful mini- animation of a destroyed missile.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-04-23 09:07:01 UTC
Sometimes I dream EVE used honor harrington battle rules and we had XO racks, huge swarms of missiles, a powerful wedge on your ship so you'd rotate to intercept the brunt of enemy fire and command datalink to combine an entire fleets missile defense into one unit. Good times.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#18 - 2012-04-23 09:33:18 UTC
Depending on the changes this would mean the death of drake fleets in PvP. hurricane has 2 spare utility slots for neuts, either both or one being defenders, drake has a spare highslot that usually fits a small neut.

Then for PvE, especially in guristas space, or against guristas ships means an instant tank buff for any ship that can carry a spare launcher. Drakes, tengus, etc. I can just imagine the horror of a botted tengu with a spare high slot fitting defenders and FOF missiles, high ECCM and safe spots.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Tobiaz
Spacerats
#19 - 2012-04-23 10:43:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
CCP has officially labeled the defender missiles as a PiTA and have been pushing it around on their plate like a small kid that doesn't want to eat his broccoli.

The problem is in the way missiles work. And they work that way to minimize the lag they create, which has seen many iterations over the years, and never kept the defender missiles in mind.

Though with the fact many people group their missiles these days, Defenders might actually perform a bit better.

I'd love to see it made a bit more useful, maybe take defenders out of normal launchers and giving it it own launcher with different sizes (and adding a phalanx and laser turret missile defense for non launchers). Basically they should offer a DPS reduction, not a total 'block all missiles' blanket.

Missiles would have to become a lot more useful first before any decent anti-missile systems would be even remotely balanced. Perhaps by making missiles the kings of alpha with more damages and lower ROF(so dps reduction makes a lot of sense). Maybe even making missiles only show redbox when they actually hit (so your anti-missile stuff going off while only yellow-boxed would make some alarmbells go off in your head)

Another possibility is making signature radius have more effect for turrets to determining their chance to hit, so a big battleship gun as little chance to hit even a stationary frigate, and no glancing hits nonsense, because with 1400s that's still a lot of hurt. (also putting an end to mael's easily insta-popping frigates at long range, unless it's heavily painted). Missiles that would always hit because of their 'splash' kind of damage, would with (slightly decreased) sig-related damage reduction be more favorable

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!

Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-04-23 10:51:58 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Depending on the changes this would mean the death of drake fleets in PvP. hurricane has 2 spare utility slots for neuts, either both or one being defenders, drake has a spare highslot that usually fits a small neut.

Then for PvE, especially in guristas space, or against guristas ships means an instant tank buff for any ship that can carry a spare launcher. Drakes, tengus, etc. I can just imagine the horror of a botted tengu with a spare high slot fitting defenders and FOF missiles, high ECCM and safe spots.


You are completely right, it would be pretty unbalanced and a huge nerf to most of the caldari ships, and I am not advocating those changes either.
I just wanted to bust the myth that defender missiles are technically impossible to implement for ccp. It could be done, and the coding would be rather easy- but it would require some large-scale rebalancing of all missile ships, and this is probably the reason why ccp has chosen to neglect defender missiles.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.

12Next page