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Final solution for botting and rmt - CCP Anti-botting software?
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#41 - 2011-09-29 12:54:51 UTC
It hasn't worked for any of the other games (o/ WoW) that has implemented such nonsense, so what makes you think big-brother software would yield a different result in Eve?

Develop a culture of snitching by making people understand that botting hurts Eve and hold people accountable .. the only (read: surest) way of doing it. Taking the 5th or feigning ignorance should never be allowed as defence since we all signed on the dotted line and thus agreed to report any EULA violations we come across.

I for one will never install snooping software of any kind (except to keep track of my multiple personalities) and abhor the idea of burning RAM no matter how little on something that has zero proven effect.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#42 - 2011-09-29 12:58:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
TriadSte wrote:
Only the people who use such things as RMT and bots would be against this.


Logical fallacy: "If you are not with us, you are against us!"

TriadSte wrote:
The legit people would not mind any CCP software running to see out the bots.


Moral fallacy: "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear."

I do have things to hide from CCP, specifically my bank account details, my Tax File Number, pass phrases for various services I administer, various documents covered by secrecy agreements that CCP is not party to. I have secrets and having those secrets does not make me an evil person. While I might trust CCP to do the right thing by me, there is no guarantee that CCP won't get bought out by someone I don't trust (such as SOE), and there is no guarantee that their supervisor program won't get hacked.

TriadSte wrote:
I mean all that's needed to catch bots is a software to track time between keypresses? If char 1-2-3 etc has the same time frame of warping to station for example, its a bot and they get auto banned.


The EVE client is "dumb". All those key presses are fed back to the server. A study on bots in Ragnarok Online found that messages sent from bots had very discrete periodicity while messages sent from human controlled clients had uniform periodicity between commands. That is to say, the timing analysis you are suggesting could easily be done server-side on EVE Online just as it was done for Ragnarok Online. There is no need for any software to be added to my computer to monitor my key presses.

In addition, there is no way for CCP to trust any software running on my computer. I could write my own software which pretends to be their supervisor program and simply feeds back to CCP whatever information they expect their supervisor program to send back if I was a "legitimate" player.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#43 - 2011-09-29 13:07:42 UTC
:contemplative mood

This is an interesting topic. I have not yet formulated my opinion, but I will say that I do not use my computer for anthing that I would not do or say in public, well except mast******** and and CCP would not be able to see that P


Slade
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#44 - 2011-09-29 13:09:37 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:


I do have things to hide from CCP, specifically my bank account details, my Tax File Number, pass phrases for various services I administer, various documents covered by secrecy agreements that CCP is not party to. I have secrets and having those secrets does not make me an evil person. While I might trust CCP to do the right thing by me, there is no guarantee that CCP won't get bought out by someone I don't trust (such as SOE), and there is no guarantee that their supervisor program won't get hacked.



That is why I use a seperate computer for all of my 'sensitive stuff.'


Slade
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#45 - 2011-09-29 13:11:49 UTC
No, I wouldn't want CCP spyware on my computer. It would likely wardec all the other spyware already there.

A kind of captcha could theoretically work, but if all it does is log you off, you will be smart enough to have built automated re-log routine.

In AION if I remember right, they have that little keypad pop up. Numbers are placed on it randomly and screen position varies, too. It activates when you have farmed a lot in a very short time. Asks you for 4 or so numbers. And I think it does not log you off. It just freezes your toon until you put in the number. Not sure anymore. I'd think even that is not totally save and just works against farm bots.

Pattern recognition will also not work. Sophisticated bots are programmed to put slight variations into their behaviour, trying to appear more human.

Lastly:
The argument "only the guilty would not agree blah blah..." is BS.

I know one of the so-called "Cyberpolice" guys in my own country. He is an annoying little fat man who enjoys dirty jokes.

I certainly would not want such a guy listening to my private phone talks, read any SMS or mails I exchange with girls or anyone else or even know what TV program I'm watching. Thanks God so far all he is allowed to do is chasing the Internet for child P and such. A rather mediocre man put to a good use, one could say.

And I no longer live in my country of birth. Phew! :)

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#46 - 2011-09-29 13:13:58 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Taking the 5th or feigning ignorance should never be allowed as defence since we all signed on the dotted line and thus agreed to report any EULA violations we come across.


Can you link that portion of the EULA/ToS please, because I cannot find it and think it would be pertinent to this discussion.

Dum Spiro Spero
malaire
#47 - 2011-09-29 13:17:35 UTC  |  Edited by: malaire
Just installing CCP spyware is not solution since it can't detect LEGO robot pressing buttons on your computer.

What is needed, is for EVE to require webcam so that CCP spyware can continually check that there is player (not robot, not your cat) present when client detects button-presses or mouse movement. As a bonus CCP can add facial detection to also detect account sharing.

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Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#48 - 2011-09-29 13:19:17 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

In addition, there is no way for CCP to trust any software running on my computer. I could write my own software which pretends to be their supervisor program and simply feeds back to CCP whatever information they expect their supervisor program to send back if I was a "legitimate" player.


Actually, CCP don't even know if it's their client (or supervisor) program that is connected to their server.

It could very well be a proxy that washes/alters any unwanted data from the stream.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#49 - 2011-09-29 13:39:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
malaire wrote:
Just installing CCP spyware is not solution since it can't detect LEGO robot pressing buttons on your computer.

What is needed, is for EVE to require webcam so that CCP spyware can continually check that there is player (not robot, not your cat) present when client detects button-presses or mouse movement. As a bonus CCP can add facial detection to also detect account sharing.



Here is hoping that you're joking/trolling
Because if not, your stupidity astounds the rest of us Shocked

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Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2011-09-29 14:52:42 UTC
malaire wrote:
Just installing CCP spyware is not solution since it can't detect LEGO robot pressing buttons on your computer.

What is needed, is for EVE to require webcam so that CCP spyware can continually check that there is player (not robot, not your cat) present when client detects button-presses or mouse movement. As a bonus CCP can add facial detection to also detect account sharing.

Now this is what high quality troll post looks like :)

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Imuran
Zentor Industries
#51 - 2011-09-29 16:50:55 UTC
Sri Nova wrote:
actually a captcha cleverly implemented at ANY docking phase of the game would be a great way to kill botting

click on doc stupid lil block comes up confirming docking coordinates human has to type in the correct answer to the captcha puzzle.



and that would take me out of the game permanently - I have severe problems deciphering a lot of captchas on forums these days - let alone the inconvenicence of it all
Zagam
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#52 - 2011-09-29 17:07:21 UTC
If CCP instituted limited spyware, they would lose a VERY large chunk of their playerbase. Many EVE players are pretty knowledgeable about computers, and routinely check my computer for spyware and such. Largely because I don't trust anything labled "SPYware" to protect my privacy.

Beyond that... I'm sure botters could disable the spyware, or learn how to evade it.

IMO, the best way to find a botter is to track the movement of their ISK, and also track their online time. If they are on 23/7 consistently, doing the same thing... they are either sharing accounts (against the EULA) or botting (also against the EULA). And... if they have a large sum of money going to certain characters on a regular basis - smells like a potential RMT operation.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2011-09-29 17:21:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
Imuran wrote:
Sri Nova wrote:
actually a captcha cleverly implemented at ANY docking phase of the game would be a great way to kill botting

click on doc stupid lil block comes up confirming docking coordinates human has to type in the correct answer to the captcha puzzle.



and that would take me out of the game permanently - I have severe problems deciphering a lot of captchas on forums these days - let alone the inconvenicence of it all


Yep... and ratting bots could as well refill ammo and drop loot to pos. Mechanics related to docking would not prevent this.

I think captchas has been discussed more than enough in some of the previous botting topics already. The general feedback has always resulted to common feedback about them being great annoyance to player but unefficient against the bots. It is safe to say that captcha-related solutions would not work in eve.

Some people have been very worried about anti-botting spyware nosing their "secrets". However anti botting spyware could be as simple as external process which is running while Eve is running and is monitoring that certain programs are NOT running in the computer at that same time.

Any protective measure can be passed, but protective measures can be upgraded when this happens. If anti-botware would not stop botting (and other questionable programs) entirely, it would at least keep them offline for great period of the year.

Running anti-bot spyware is many times safer than running bot software which is spying.

Running anti-virus, anti-adware, anti-spyware is pretty much same than running anti-botware. Most of you have at least one of the 3 in your computer already.

Anti-botware can be hacked? Yes... so can eve client or your internet browser.

Removing botting (or some of the botters) would not stop RMT? Perhaps not. It still would make harder for them to get iskies to sell.

Removing botting would push more people to buy isk from RMT market? Perhaps or perhaps they would use the legal way and buy plex.

There... some of my thoughts about the issues mentioned in replies so far.
Discussion has been very constructive so far - keep it going :)
Thanks for all the replies.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

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Alundil
Rolled Out
#54 - 2011-09-29 17:25:48 UTC
I know I am quoting myself but only because I think that this idea would be very neat if implemented and would also give a potential boost to exploration (find old botter's stuff) and lore (here lies dead botters)

Alundil wrote:
Just a thought in regards to the Botting/Macroing/RMT-ing people caught in Sreegs' devious net of devious catching.

I thought it would be a great idea if there might be a special place in New Eden for those toons/accounts caught exploiting or botting/macroing/RMT-ing by the Devs.


There's an oft quoted and cliched saying along the lines of "There's a special place in Hell for..."



1. It of course relies on CCP's willingness to seriously address the problem (insert EVE meme at your leisure).
I am not necessarily saying that they do not - there just doesn't appear to be much in the way of meaningful "Perp-Walk"

2. Once the offending toon/character/account is detected the following actions happen:

a. Their accounts are immediately frozen and disabled
b. Their EVE-worldy possessions (from all toons on the account) are ejected in a special super large "Jet Can" in a random system in space (w- or k-). These containers would be scannable/probable using Deep Space probes and would offer a real neat surprise to the player(s) that located them.
c. The ship hulls in their possession (from all toons on the account) are transported to a remote beacon in the system they were located in.
d. This beacon would be called something along the lines of "Sreegs' revenge" or some other Lore - Appropriate name
e. These transported hulls would be derelict wrecks and un-salvageable. They would retain the names of the Toon caught and expelled for violating the TOS in the manner described above (botting, etc)

This would, effectively, be an EVE ship graveyard populated by some of the most despicable characters in New Eden.



https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=14820

I'm right behind you
stoicfaux
#55 - 2011-09-29 18:09:08 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
exasperation: Due to reasons mentioned previously, solving the botting problem is impractical/impossible. The only way to *truly* prevent botting is to eliminate the "need" or desire to bot. Meaning, if you eliminate the problem, then there's no need to find a solution to the problem.[1]

lecturing: Putting strip miners on a freighter, applying a PI paradigm to mining (i.e "automated" mining,) or replacing NPC bounties with PC bounties (miner pays you X isk to keep clear this belt clear of rats) are (not necessarily good) examples of removing or reducing the "need" or "desire" to bot.


[1] clarifying to prevent incredulity: For example, solving world hunger and world peace are hard problems. However, if you nerve gas the planet then there's no longer a need to find solutions to world hunger and world peace.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Minabunny
Bogus Brothers Corporation
#56 - 2011-09-29 18:19:14 UTC
Would never happen and the 'spyware' would be bypassed just like it is in other games that have gone this route.
N1gella Laws0n
Doomheim
#57 - 2011-09-29 18:58:52 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
We all are aware that rmt and bots are in Eve to stay. CCP is unwilling


fyp.

They don't even autoflag people that run 23/7.
They're not even trying.
Sebero Sinak
Doomheim
#58 - 2011-09-29 19:36:56 UTC
+1 to you and the spyware idea...if you trust em with your other info , some CCP spyware is worth the price to cut down on botting.

Probably the biggest whiners you will see against the idea are the bot users.
Jita Alt666
#59 - 2011-09-29 19:53:57 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
The Apostle wrote:
Quote:
This x100000

CCP permits botting for a reason.

Any claims and so-called efforts to the contrary are to keep the greater player-base collective panties unbunched.

RMT controls most of 0.0. CCP not only knows this, they factor it into their business model.

Forgive my ignorance, can you please explain to me how you would stop such actions if you were CCP?


Your ignorance is not my problem.

This is internets forumz and no one is paying me to educate you.

Imagination is the only limitation to the amount of information and statistics available to them. If you can't figure out how the one group who owns and controls the server-side coding/operation of the game might be able to identify systematic botting, there is no hope for you.... and there will most certainly be no forgiveness for your idiocy.

Forgive my brutal logic. Can you please explain to me how you are so dumb?

Lolz. man, you're a card.

So I can run 3 Tengu accounts. I run each for 4 or 5 hours at a time. If a neut comes into system I safe up. I do this 7 days a week.
Am I a bot or a human?

I run 3 Hulks on 3 screens. I mine 5 hours a day and I do it 7 days straight. After 5 hours, I log my other 3 Hulks and mine the same. While all my Hulks are mining away I'm doing my work at my desk.
Am I a bot or human?

I run a Domi and I do L4's all day every day. After 5 hours, I log my other Domi char and do the same.
Am I a bot or human?

Don't bother answering. You can't tell can you? If you think patterns are a way to detect botting. Well. Cough......

Only way I have EVER seen bots identified beyond doubt is by interacting with them. Their response is the giveaway, not the botting patterns themselves.

Oh and RMT. As fast as a sting nailed an RMT'er, he's moved, shut down his accounts and started somewhere else. And apart from a breach of EULA, what law has he broken? You cannot enlist the help of the RMT ISP's/law enforcment or any such agency. So how do you stop them?

To declare that CCP could "easily" stop RMT/Botting is about.... well..... as dumb as it can get. Sorry man.


Your over simplification is ridiculous. Patterns in details show bot vs human very quickly. If CCP's were detailed enough...
Jita Alt666
#60 - 2011-09-29 20:09:16 UTC
My random crazy idea:
Build the code for an AI NPC over ride that can be used by GMs. When a player is reported as potentially being a bot, that player is tagged and when that player logs on next (or randomly), a GM is notified with the system location, what ship the player/bot is using. The GM can then watch the player in local and see what actions the player/bot is taking. When the GM is ready, he/she can take control of NPCs in that system (or more specifically the belt/anomaly the player/bot is in) and mix things up a little. Switch targets, Utilise normally unused forms of ecm. etc.