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Smaller Freighter
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Locoluna
Thunderous Forge and Exploration
#1 - 2012-04-22 06:28:51 UTC
I do quite a bit of hauling and I've come to a conclusion there needs to be a smaller freighter in the 300K to 500K class. In my opinion it's quite a hassle to have to use a Charon to haul cargo's larger than 100K but smaller than 750K. Perhaps in the next design a ship competition a slot can be reserved for this glaring need.
Whitehound
#2 - 2012-04-22 07:46:30 UTC
No, it is not needed in my opinion. You have the Orca, which can be rigged and fitted with cargo expanders to hold 101k m3 + 40k m3 corp hangars. The entire Iteron series for instance with 5 different ship sizes is a waste of resources when people jump from Iteron I to IV within a few days. Adding an intermediate freighter class will be similar in uselessness and only please a very few players. The cost for such a ship will also not be much less than a proper freighter, because of the low popularity an intermediate freighter will have.

I suggest you aim for a proper freighter. It pays for itself in a short time and you will be wishing for an even bigger freighter.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#3 - 2012-04-22 12:09:30 UTC
Locoluna wrote:
I do quite a bit of hauling and I've come to a conclusion there needs to be a smaller freighter in the 300K to 500K class. In my opinion it's quite a hassle to have to use a Charon to haul cargo's larger than 100K but smaller than 750K. Perhaps in the next design a ship competition a slot can be reserved for this glaring need.


If only there was a ship that used the same hull as the Charon, but only held 367969m3 worth of stuff!

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rhea

No, we don't need an intermediate hauler. Get more stuff. Or, better yet, don't get more stuff, because the more stuff you cram into that freighter, the better a gank magnet it becomes.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

stoicfaux
#4 - 2012-04-22 15:15:29 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
The problem isn't just size, it's also cost, speed, flexibility, skills, and tank. Freighters are a bit expensive, very slow, have a very predictable gank-to-cargo-value value, and cannot be customized with modules.

There's simply a huge gap between
* the Iteron V: 7,500 - ~33,000 cargo, ~1.9M isk
* Blockade Runners: 3,000 - ~10,000m3 cargo, ~100M isk
* Deep Space Transports: ~30,000m3 cargo, 150-180M isk
and
* the Charon: 785,000 - 981,250m3 cargo, ~1,400M isk

As for the Orca (@ 750M isk,) it may be a great hauler, but it requires training "off-topic" mining skills (Mining, Astrogeology, Mining Barge, Mining Foreman) to fly a ship that's more geared for mining ops than for hauling. Just imagine what an Orca hauler would look like with the mining bonuses replaced with hauling/agility/speed bonuses.

Plus, given how the current ganking environment has changed, there is a definite need for a smaller, more agile, and tankier "light" freighter class that can fit modules. IMO, CCP really needs to smooth out the transport ship line and add some flexibility to it, especially in a game that touts the economic sandbox.


edit: As for jump freighters as an intermediate freighter class, they cost ~7,000M isk. Exorbitant cost plus specialized role doesn't help with the Industrial-Transport/Freighter gap.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Whitehound
#5 - 2012-04-22 15:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
stoicfaux wrote:
The problem isn't just size, it's also cost, speed, flexibility, skills, and tank. Freighters are a bit expensive, very slow, have a very predictable gank-to-cargo-value value, and cannot be customized with modules.

There's simply a huge gap between
* the Iteron V: 7,500 - ~33,000 cargo, ~1.9M isk
* Blockade Runners: 3,000 - ~10,000m3 cargo, ~100M isk
* Deep Space Transports: ~30,000m3 cargo, 150-180M isk
and
* the Charon: 785,000 - 981,250m3 cargo, ~1,400M isk

As for the Orca (@ 750M isk,) it may be a great hauler, but it requires training "off-topic" mining skills (Mining, Astrogeology, Mining Barge, Mining Foreman) to fly a ship that's more geared for mining ops than for hauling. Just imagine what an Orca hauler would look like with the mining bonuses replaced with hauling/agility/speed bonuses.

Plus, given how the current ganking environment has changed, there is a definite need for a smaller, more agile, and tankier "light" freighter class that can fit modules. IMO, CCP really needs to smooth out the transport ship line and add some flexibility to it, especially in a game that touts the economic sandbox.


edit: As for jump freighters as an intermediate freighter class, they cost ~7,000M isk. Exorbitant cost plus specialized role doesn't help with the Industrial-Transport/Freighter gap.

Similar arguments are being used to demand sub-cap uber battleships and anti-BS capitals.

You think too linear, which makes you believe that there is a big gap. There is none, but ship sizes grow non-linear. Just imagine what will happen when CCP introduces a 300k m3 freighter... The next players will demand a 200k m3 and a 500k m3 freighter. Instead, CCP wants you to make a commitment when you step up.

Just get a freighter and you will see how small 900k m3 are. I could use a 3000k m3 freighter and fill it with ease every day several times.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#6 - 2012-04-22 15:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Stoicfaux - Valid points. Freighters were a lot better option when they were only 700m. I am regretting selling off my Charon and Obelisk.

Perhaps what is needed is a huge buff to the Transport ships?

Leave the Blockade Runners as they are, but double the transport capacity of the Deep Space Transport.

I don't like the idea of having a subcapital ship able to haul more than 80k, but that would fill the gap a bit better.

Switch their active tank bonuses to HP bonuses. Someone else can figure out what that does for each ship, but I think the active tank bonus is absolutely worthless.

Increase the price slightly - to around 220m each.

Impel - currently 39437 max with 7x Expanded Cargohold II and 2x Medium Cargohold Optimization II
Bustard - currently 33357 with 5x Expanded Cargohold II and 2x Medium Cargohold Optimization II
Occator - currently 38664 with 6x Expanded Cargohold II and 2x Medium Cargohold Optimization II
Mastodon - currently 31841 with 5x Expanded Cargohold II and 2x Medium Cargohold Optimization II

Straight double it. I used T2 rigs, because I figure that min-maxers will fit T2 rigs on a 220m ISK industrial hull.

If players want to fit some more EHP while still hauling stuff, they have a more flexible ship to do that with.

Edit - or, if people are interested - I can sell them a set of Nomad implants! They make your freighter much more agile. It's like that dress your wife got... "no honey, you don't look fat in that dress."

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Katalci
Kismesis
#7 - 2012-04-22 20:59:45 UTC
Buy an Orca or a JF
Celeritas 5k
Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus
#8 - 2012-04-22 21:45:48 UTC
There's another thread that was recently moved to Features and Ideas about exactly this, I'm in full support.

JFs don't count, they are holy jesusballs expensive and take a long time to train. (They're not a middle step between haulers and freighters, they're the next step after freighters.) The Orca doesn't count because it has a lot of crap that has nothing to do with hauling, and you have to train a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with hauling in order to fly it. I have no desire to train anything related to mining, yet I still have need to move stuff that can't be fit into a DST.
Boomhaur
#9 - 2012-04-23 00:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Boomhaur
I would argue JF do count as their smaller, faster and as a bounus have more EHP. They may take more time to train but who cares this is Eve nothing is free. And the price is expensive I give you that but so are a lot of ships. And if your looking for a smaller regular freighter I can only assume your in hi sec and don't need the ability of the jump freighters but just want something faster. Which I would still consider a JF worth it, as your still protected by concord and your in a faster ship, and harder to gank with the higher EHP.

As for the Orca I don't consider that anything like a freighter I consider that a small makeshift transport. It wasn't purpose built for that and it's just that after it's release a lot of people found out it works good in this capacity.

Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#10 - 2012-04-23 00:53:14 UTC
do keep in mind, with a JF you can move very quickly if you jump into a nearby lowsec system and head into HS that way. You can cut out hundreds of jumps over the ships' lifespan that way.

thhief ghabmoef
Celeritas 5k
Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus
#11 - 2012-04-23 01:08:29 UTC
Boomhaur wrote:
I would argue JF do count as their smaller, faster and as a bounus have more EHP. They may take more time to train but who cares this is Eve nothing is free. And the price is expensive I give you that but so are a lot of ships. And if your looking for a smaller regular freighter I can only assume your in hi sec and don't need the ability of the jump freighters but just want something faster. Which I would still consider a JF worth it, as your still protected by concord and your in a faster ship, and harder to gank with the higher EHP.

As for the Orca I don't consider that anything like a freighter I consider that a small makeshift transport. It wasn't purpose built for that and it's just that after it's release a lot of people found out it works good in this capacity.


If the "small freighter" is more expensive than the "regular freighter", it's pointless.
Katalci
Kismesis
#12 - 2012-04-23 03:44:40 UTC
It doesn't take long to train for a freighter, and they aren't very expensive. Just get one -- we don't need a useless middle step when we have the Orca anyway.
Locoluna
Thunderous Forge and Exploration
#13 - 2012-04-25 05:27:37 UTC
I would like to thank those who replied . I have learned a few new facts and have a new perspective on hauling.
11eyes
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-04-25 10:50:24 UTC
Locoluna wrote:
I do quite a bit of hauling and I've come to a conclusion there needs to be a smaller freighter in the 300K to 500K class. In my opinion it's quite a hassle to have to use a Charon to haul cargo's larger than 100K but smaller than 750K. Perhaps in the next design a ship competition a slot can be reserved for this glaring need.


I do believe the Rhea would fill this area.
Raziel Walker
NPC Tax Evasion Corp
#15 - 2012-04-25 14:02:24 UTC
IIf I want to move more as 30k m3 I use a freighter.
Because only freighters have the cargo space.

If I want to move more as 100m I use a freighter.
Because freighters are more expensive to suicide gank as my deep space transport.

What I want is a small transport ship with 1000 m3 cargo space and 1 million EHP to move stuff in absolute safety even if I notice 50 tornado's at undock.
i don't know what I need but a cheap jump freither without jump drive is not it.
Sjugar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-04-25 16:34:53 UTC
Orca does what you're asking for. Also if you sacrifice a bit of cargospace you can fit a 100 mn mwd and it travels faster then an,iteron V. Also it has the still not scannable corp hangar for you shinies.
Katalci
Kismesis
#17 - 2012-04-25 18:53:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Katalci
Celeritas 5k wrote:
There's another thread that was recently moved to Features and Ideas about exactly this, I'm in full support.

JFs don't count, they are holy jesusballs expensive and take a long time to train. (They're not a middle step between haulers and freighters, they're the next step after freighters.) The Orca doesn't count because it has a lot of crap that has nothing to do with hauling, and you have to train a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with hauling in order to fly it. I have no desire to train anything related to mining, yet I still have need to move stuff that can't be fit into a DST.

boo ******* hoo, train for it and buy it. This is like someone bitching about having to train invention skills to fly a hictor, even though they don't want to do invention.

Raziel Walker wrote:

What I want is a small transport ship with 1000 m3 cargo space and 1 million EHP to move stuff in absolute safety even if I notice 50 tornado's at undock.
i don't know what I need but a cheap jump freither without jump drive is not it.

hahahahhaa no, HTFU, use a scout, and don't be dumb. If you want "absolute safety", go play WoW.

also there is a ship, battlecruiser hull, that is very similar to what you want. It's rather obvious, in fact.
Infinite Force
#18 - 2012-04-25 19:48:43 UTC
Locoluna wrote:
I do quite a bit of hauling and I've come to a conclusion there needs to be a smaller freighter in the 300K to 500K class. In my opinion it's quite a hassle to have to use a Charon to haul cargo's larger than 100K but smaller than 750K. Perhaps in the next design a ship competition a slot can be reserved for this glaring need.

Go here: Mini-Freighter - in Features & Ideas.

Lots of good ideas there.

For the Orca whiners - go whine elsewhere. We're not asking for an Orca.

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