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CCP: Tell us what is and what isn't allowed for crying out loud!

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Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#61 - 2011-09-26 19:10:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Nick Bete wrote:
I know that CCP bashing is the new forum sport but, how about using a little common sense



You must be new to the internet if you think that people will have a homogeneous consensus on what is right and wrong. Common sense doesn't apply on the internet and therefor somethings need to clearly defined for most.

What CCP has done in the past is leave "grey areas" that coarse of action is taken at a case to case basis. While this has "somewhat" worked in the past, primarily due to Eve's smallish player base, this really won't work now. Considering the fact that some exploits could have wide spread implications due to Eve being single sharded.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Barakkus
#62 - 2011-09-26 19:22:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Barakkus
GM Karidor wrote:

On a side note, point 10 (putting your own videos onto the Screen in the Captains Quarters) just has been addressed in a new dev blog.

As for the rest, working on it.



NICE.

p/r0nz for everyonez!

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2011-09-27 01:26:06 UTC
Quote:
As for the rest, working on it.


Thanks for the update. Looking forward to the next bit Smile
Ildryn
Idle Guns.
#64 - 2011-09-27 01:57:32 UTC
Lithalnas wrote:
This is what is commonly known about your list o stuff that you want to know about. The GMs can chime in it things have been changed or have always been a bit fuzzy.


8) "Hacking" local chat to make you not appear on other people's local channel
The monkeysphere hack is considered an exploit


Unless of course you are Monkeysphere....then you are not banned and released.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2011-09-27 02:56:01 UTC
Othran wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
So what you're saying is that having a centralized listing of known exploits and other nefarious activities which are not allowed and any other definitive communication to that extent would tie CCP's hands, from a PR standpoint, so that you wouldn't be able to apply your rules with the bias that CCP does without having the rest of the player base cry foul while pointing out the specific violations to which you could no longer legitimately deny or ignore?


No, he's saying it'd cost money to fix and that's not happening anytime soon.

Therefore a list of exploits (not dealt with - no devs available) would make matters worse for GMs.

tl;dr emogoths and dusties get the resources Roll


No, I'm fairly certain he said, and I'll paraphrase, that he didn't want to tie his hands with rules. This, of course, leaves the status quo intact. Honestly, who wants to do tie their own hands with fairness? It's always nice to tell one person that they were banned due to a clear case of abuse or exploitation and then later tell the masses why "so and so" wasn't banned for the same offense by stating that there are not black and white definitions of such an abuse or exploit....especially when the offender is a friend of a GM.

Don't ban me, bro!
sukmanobov
Apollyllon
#66 - 2011-09-27 03:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: sukmanobov
Quote:
8) "Hacking" local chat to make you not appear on other people's local channel
9) can baiting in newbie systems
10) Modifying non-executable EVE data to make decorative changes to EVE, such as getting the TV to play customized videos.
11) Market cache scraping to automatically collect,collate and upload market data.


8 - I for one would love to know how to do this!

9 - Who cares? just ban naming of cans

10 - Well i'd love to watch BBC-iPlayer on my CQ its about the only that might make uncheck the "don't show CQ" botton First thing i did when i got CQ was look at at how hot my female chars were once i got past that. I never used it again

11 - Market cache? lol if i makes eve lag then get rid of it.

12 - Kill jita / amarr / rens local chats pls

13 - Can you please give a 7day timer on Secure Cargo containers im sick of "happy new year" can in hek and its surrounding brothers. that place really is the Junk yard for useless Dead Cans. either that or im gonna go global on that thing one day. Lol
GM Karidor
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#67 - 2011-09-27 11:40:47 UTC
sukmanobov wrote:
[quote]8) "Hacking" local chat to make you not appear on other people's local channel

13 - Can you please give a 7day timer on Secure Cargo containers im sick of "happy new year" can in hek and its surrounding brothers. that place really is the Junk yard for useless Dead Cans. either that or im gonna go global on that thing one day. Lol


If a Secure Cargo Container stays around for more than 30 days, then someone is taking care of it by accessing it regularly. Any Secure Container that has not been accessed in the past 30 days and is not nearby an active POS will be removed, and that's been the case for quite a long time already.

GM Karidor | Senior Game Master
Zey Nadar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2011-09-27 14:44:34 UTC
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:

2. If its an exploit, making it public knowledge is absolutely bad.


I guess that is why people want to know whether something is an exploit or not.
sukmanobov
Apollyllon
#69 - 2011-09-28 02:41:10 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
sukmanobov wrote:
[quote]8) "Hacking" local chat to make you not appear on other people's local channel

13 - Can you please give a 7day timer on Secure Cargo containers im sick of "happy new year" can in hek and its surrounding brothers. that place really is the Junk yard for useless Dead Cans. either that or im gonna go global on that thing one day. Lol


If a Secure Cargo Container stays around for more than 30 days, then someone is taking care of it by accessing it regularly. Any Secure Container that has not been accessed in the past 30 days and is not nearby an active POS will be removed, and that's been the case for quite a long time already.


thanks for the reply Karidor

13. Either that of ban the use of "Secure cans" at NPC based stations. Normal jet cans disapear in a hour or so. The other ones serve no purpose except to advertise corp recruitment "Some silly mining corp, crapy pvp corp is recruiting player made bunnie wabbits - http://insertstupidlinkhere.com".
Tbh thats what the forums are for or if you wish to pay for it - thats what the news boards are for.
Secure cans will have to loaded when you reboot TQ and are a waste resource on the server unless there doing what they were intended for i.e. Sticking your ore in it at belts storing stuff at POS's etc..
GM Karidor
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#70 - 2011-09-29 14:30:32 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Thank you all for the patience, this took a tad bit longer than I anticipated. But with no further ado, here is the current situation in regards to the points brought up in the original post:

1) Keyboard macros a'la the G15 Logitech keyboard
This is covered in our EULA, which clearly states:

6. CONDUCT
A. Specifically Restricted Conduct
2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.

Please refer to our EULA and our Third Party Policy for further details on our stance on this.

EDITED IN 2015 TO REFLECT THAT THIS IS A FORUM POST AND OFFICIAL POLICIES ARE AVAILABLE HERE.


The essence of the EULA is to prevent cheating. Cheating is defined currently by the EULA as automating gameplay to an extent that is not achievable by a human being. A player usinga macro to achieve (or sustain) automated gameplay will be at risk for warning or more severe actions.

2) Loggoffski/loggonski
Not an exploit at all, and never has been. We won’t punish people for logging out of and into the game (even if they happen to log in all at about the same time and location that happens to be inconvenient for you).

3) Corp hopping to evade war decs
No longer an exploit, with the exception of pilots changing corps while in space AND online (i.e. to"surprise" war targets).

4) Corp recycling to evade war decs
Not an exploit. Players are free to close and recreate corporations as they see fit due to the inconveniences usually involved in closing down a corp and the (miniscule) costs of founding a new one.

5) Alt recycling
While players are free to delete characters as they see fit, excessive recycling of characters not permitted and disciplinary actions will be decided on a case by case basis. General guideline: don’t do it to avoid consequences within game mechanics.

6) Alliance hopping to evade war decs. (edited Oct. 10th)
Corporations are free to change alliances as they see fit at any time. This officially nullifies this notification.

(Edited from: Not an exploit per se, but excessively doing so will result in a warning. Don’t want the risk of wars being declared on you? Stay in NPC corps. Also see the link in point 7.)

7) Using alt corps to artificially inflate the cost of war decs (edited Oct. 10th)
Not an exploit.

(Edited from: Not an exploit due to cost involved and lack of other means to shield one self from constant war decs. That is, if you do apply the wars directly to the entity you want to drive up the war costs for. Declaring cheap wars on a corp that then joins up the alliance you want to “shield” is considered an exploit as per the this notification (which still is the case), and you will get in trouble for doing that.)

8) "Hacking" local chat to make you not appear on other people's local channel
Definite Exploit, but should be fixed. Please report any new occurrences immediately.

9) Can baiting in newbie systems
This is explicitly listed here. Also see this list of what we consider "Rookie Systems".

10) Modifying non-executable EVE data to make decorative changes to EVE, such as getting the TV to play customized videos.
Modifying any client files is considered a EULA violation. However, adding Videos to play in the CQ is possible without modifying anything, as described in CCP Optimals Dev Blog.

11) Market cache scraping to automatically collect, collate and upload market data.
As long as the IGB-specific procedure to open the market window for a specific item (and thus having the client creating cache data for that item) exists, you can use it. Keep in mind, though, that changes to this may happen and this procedure may stop working at any time. Also, reading and evaluating the clients cache data with third party tools is permitted, however modifying cache files used by the client is not and falls under modification of client files.

Those policies are, at this point, unlikely to change anytime soon, but yes, we may revise them should we deem it necessary.

GM Karidor | Senior Game Master
Nyio
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2011-09-29 14:35:22 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:

11) Market cache scraping to automatically collect, collate and upload market data.
As long as the IGB-specific procedure to open the market window for a specific item (and thus having the client creating cache data for that item) exists, you can use it. Keep in mind, though, that changes to this may happen and this procedure may stop working at any time. Also, reading and evaluating the clients cache data with third party tools is permitted, however modifying cache files used by the client is not and falls under modification of client files.


So this means that we have a clear answer that using programs like EVE Mentat is ok then?

Golem • CCP In-Game Event 2011.11.23 • Nyio • Grenade?
GM Karidor
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#72 - 2011-09-29 14:58:13 UTC
sukmanobov wrote:

13. Either that of ban the use of "Secure cans" at NPC based stations. Normal jet cans disapear in a hour or so. The other ones serve no purpose except to advertise corp recruitment "Some silly mining corp, crapy pvp corp is recruiting player made bunnie wabbits - http://insertstupidlinkhere.com".
Tbh thats what the forums are for or if you wish to pay for it - thats what the news boards are for.
Secure cans will have to loaded when you reboot TQ and are a waste resource on the server unless there doing what they were intended for i.e. Sticking your ore in it at belts storing stuff at POS's etc..


One could always declare war on the owners and remove the containers forcefully.

However, if there are so many around that they majorly affect client loading, feel free to report that and we will have a look. If the number of containers is indeed to high, then we may remove them. Keep in mind, though, that there is no "X amount of containers" for this and it is highly dependent on the situation, so don't be disappointed if we don't act when we disagree with you in reagards to the effect the containers have on the area.

GM Karidor | Senior Game Master
GM Karidor
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#73 - 2011-09-29 15:02:44 UTC
Nyio wrote:
GM Karidor wrote:

11) Market cache scraping to automatically collect, collate and upload market data.
As long as the IGB-specific procedure to open the market window for a specific item (and thus having the client creating cache data for that item) exists, you can use it. Keep in mind, though, that changes to this may happen and this procedure may stop working at any time. Also, reading and evaluating the clients cache data with third party tools is permitted, however modifying cache files used by the client is not and falls under modification of client files.


So this means that we have a clear answer that using programs like EVE Mentat is ok then?


Not exactly familiar with EVE Mentat at this point, so I can't comment on this specific program, really. But if it does nothing more than what's been said in reply to point 11 and doesn't feed back into the client (such as changing orders for you automatically in response to this data), then it should be fine.

GM Karidor | Senior Game Master
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2011-09-29 15:05:52 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
Stuff

Thanks for the dedication and very informative post.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Nyio
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2011-09-29 15:07:28 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
Nyio wrote:
GM Karidor wrote:

11) Market cache scraping to automatically collect, collate and upload market data.
As long as the IGB-specific procedure to open the market window for a specific item (and thus having the client creating cache data for that item) exists, you can use it. Keep in mind, though, that changes to this may happen and this procedure may stop working at any time. Also, reading and evaluating the clients cache data with third party tools is permitted, however modifying cache files used by the client is not and falls under modification of client files.


So this means that we have a clear answer that using programs like EVE Mentat is ok then?


Not exactly familiar with EVE Mentat at this point, so I can't comment on this specific program, really. But if it does nothing more than what's been said in reply to point 11 and doesn't feed back into the client (such as changing orders for you automatically in response to this data), then it should be fine.


Well I know there was some "yahoo" about EVE Mentat on the old forums, but from what I understand it should be ok to use..
On a side note about EVE Mentat: I've tried it but then felt it was almost more work with all market orders, so I ended up going old style. Lol

Golem • CCP In-Game Event 2011.11.23 • Nyio • Grenade?
Taedrin
Virtues Corporation
#76 - 2011-09-30 04:17:00 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
Thank you all for the patience, this took a tad bit longer than I anticipated. But with no further ado, here is the current situation in regards to the points brought up in the original post:

1) Keyboard macros a'la the G15 Logitech keyboard
This really depends on the exact useof those keyboard macros. General guideline: Automating gameplay: bad. Turning on all your hardeners with one key press: fine

The essence of the EULA is to prevent cheating. Cheating is defined currently by the EULA as automating gameplay to an extent that is not achievable by a human being. A player usinga macro to achieve (or sustain) automated gameplay will be at risk for warning or more severe actions.

2) Loggoffski/loggonski
Not an exploit at all, and never has been. We won’t punish people for logging out of and into the game (even if they happen to log in all at about the same time and location that happens to be inconvenient for you).

3) Corp hopping to evade war decs
No longer an exploit, with the exception of pilots changing corps while in space AND online (i.e. to"surprise" war targets).

4) Corp recycling to evade war decs
Not an exploit. Players are free to close and recreate corporations as they see fit due to the inconveniences usually involved in closing down a corp and the (miniscule) costs of founding a new one.

5) Alt recycling
While players are free to delete characters as they see fit, excessive recycling of characters not permitted and disciplinary actions will be decided on a case by case basis. General guideline: don’t do it to avoid consequences within game mechanics.

6) Alliance hopping to evade war decs.
Not an exploit per se, but excessively doing so will result in a warning. Don’t want the risk of wars being declared on you? Stay in NPC corps. Also see the link in point 7.

7) Using alt corps to artificially inflate the cost of war decs
Not an exploit due to cost involved and lack of other means to shield one self from constant war decs. That is, if you do apply the wars directly to the entity you want to drive up the war costs for. Declaring cheap wars on a corp that then joins up the alliance you want to “shield” is considered an exploit as per the this notification (which still is the case), and you will get in trouble for doing that.

8) "Hacking" local chat to make you not appear on other people's local channel
Definite Exploit, but should be fixed. Please report any new occurrences immediately.

9) Can baiting in newbie systems
This is explicitly listed here. Also see this list of what we consider "Rookie Systems".

10) Modifying non-executable EVE data to make decorative changes to EVE, such as getting the TV to play customized videos.
Modifying any client files is considered a EULA violation. However, adding Videos to play in the CQ is possible without modifying anything, as described in CCP Optimals Dev Blog.

11) Market cache scraping to automatically collect, collate and upload market data.
As long as the IGB-specific procedure to open the market window for a specific item (and thus having the client creating cache data for that item) exists, you can use it. Keep in mind, though, that changes to this may happen and this procedure may stop working at any time. Also, reading and evaluating the clients cache data with third party tools is permitted, however modifying cache files used by the client is not and falls under modification of client files.

Those policies are, at this point, unlikely to change anytime soon, but yes, we may revise them should we deem it necessary.


Thank you for the answers GM Karidor. However, I would like to reiterate the purpose of my OP: to consolidate this information in some sort of official manner so that this information stays readily available for the future generations of EVE Players.
GM Karidor
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#77 - 2011-10-10 17:51:04 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
...

Those policies are, at this point, unlikely to change anytime soon, but yes, we may revise them should we deem it necessary.


And so goes live and things change. After a bit of back and forth and internal discussions, Customer Support will change to a "hands off" approach in regards to War mechanics effective immediately, meaning if you can do it within the current game mechanics, you are free to do so (until the actual mechanic eventually changes). This affects mainly Point 6 and 7, and they will be change as follows:

6) Alliance hopping to evade war decs.
Corporations are free to change alliances as they see fit at any time. This officially nullifies this notification.

7) Using alt corps to artificially inflate the cost of war decs
Not an exploit.

I will update the original post with the answers accordingly as well.

We are aware that this change will affect (and probably annoy) some corporations that make a living of declaring war on other corporations and may make it harder to follow through with attacking a certain entity in high sec space, but feel that any issues arising should be addressed by changes in the game mechanics rather than artificial rules enforced by Customer Support after the fact.

GM Karidor | Senior Game Master
GM Karidor
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#78 - 2011-10-10 19:22:12 UTC
Taedrin wrote:


Thank you for the answers GM Karidor. However, I would like to reiterate the purpose of my OP: to consolidate this information in some sort of official manner so that this information stays readily available for the future generations of EVE Players.


Something like this?

Honestly, it's a wiki and any EVE player could have created such a page to try and keep track of it, that's why the EVElopedia is a wiki in the first place Smile

But yeah, I locked this one to give it that "Official" stamp, so I'll try to keep that page up to date with any new public announcements that the Customer Support team makes. I won't promise adding past announcements as I don't know if I can make time for that, but should you feel anything to be missing and have the link and all, then let us know through the discussion page there.

GM Karidor | Senior Game Master
Taedrin
Virtues Corporation
#79 - 2011-10-10 19:55:11 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
Taedrin wrote:


Thank you for the answers GM Karidor. However, I would like to reiterate the purpose of my OP: to consolidate this information in some sort of official manner so that this information stays readily available for the future generations of EVE Players.


Something like this?

Honestly, it's a wiki and any EVE player could have created such a page to try and keep track of it, that's why the EVElopedia is a wiki in the first place Smile

But yeah, I locked this one to give it that "Official" stamp, so I'll try to keep that page up to date with any new public announcements that the Customer Support team makes. I won't promise adding past announcements as I don't know if I can make time for that, but should you feel anything to be missing and have the link and all, then let us know through the discussion page there.


Thank you very, VERY much GM Karidor. I am very appreciative of CCP's new resolve to improve communication with its playerbase.
Muul Udonii
THORN Syndicate
Northern Coalition.
#80 - 2011-10-10 20:17:07 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
And don't forget, if you're in doubt about something you intend to do might be skirting the rules on the wrong side of the rules, file a petition.


I'm about to suicide gank a hulk. Is this allowed?

Oh wait, too late, he left system.


The OP is correct, a list of FAQs easily accessible from the help page in the GUI would be a great idea. Especially if it is regularly maintained and updating it is a part of the release of a new rule.