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Virtual Psychopathy in New Eden

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Gorki Andropov
I Dn't Knw Wht You Wnt Bt I Cn't Gve It Anymre
#141 - 2012-04-21 14:30:07 UTC
Memrox wrote:
I mostly do bad things in Eve and im bad IRL..... :D



"Bad guy and all-round bad seed is misanthrope, uses smilies"
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2012-04-21 15:41:38 UTC
Poker, monopoly, and chess all have a common, clear, and defined goal intrinsic and necessary for winning the game. Eve does not. Comparing Eve to these games is fundamentally wrong.

You don't have to betray or scam in order to "win" Eve. And you definitely don't have to be a prick or sadistical a*hole either. Sure, you can make it your own personal goals and choose to do these things. But they are not intrinsic in the sense that you have to or else you will lose.

That's what makes these comparisons to Eve (usually chess, poker, and monopoly) a flawed argument.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#143 - 2012-04-21 15:54:46 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Poker, monopoly, and chess all have a common, clear, and defined goal intrinsic and necessary for winning the game. Eve does not. Comparing Eve to these games is fundamentally wrong.

You don't have to betray or scam in order to "win" Eve. And you definitely don't have to be a prick or sadistical a*hole either. Sure, you can make it your own personal goals and choose to do these things. But they are not intrinsic in the sense that you have to or else you will lose.

That's what makes these comparisons to Eve (usually chess, poker, and monopoly) a flawed argument.



Incorrect, apart from the fact you may design your own objective (mine is to use the many tools the game has for destroying ships for their intended purpose, while trying to lose as few as possible myself) it is PRECISELY like monopoly.

EVE is a zero sum game. Everytime you "win" at anything, from selling your products before someone else, to destroying an alliance, someone else loses.

Any attempts to assign qualitative statements about modes of gameplay you do not participate in are frankly just attempts to boost your own morale.

I don't hate miners. I do hate miners that think they can be afk and get money for nothing while being 100% safe. It goes against the design of the game mechanics, and when these mechanics bite them in the ass they cry a whole lot.


I applaud hard working industrialists that have well organized operations and clever business models.


If you're gonna AFK mine, or just generally don't want to bother ensuring you don't get blown up, that is absolutely fine. I may not agree with it, but that is your choice.

But don't cry when your own choice of playstyle bites you in the bum because the mechanics allow for others to prey upon you if you do it. You took that chance yourself, and sometimes you will pay the price for it.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#144 - 2012-04-21 16:05:15 UTC
Helicity Boson wrote:
EVE is a zero sum game. Everytime you "win" at anything, from selling your products before someone else, to destroying an alliance, someone else loses.


Ok, but all he's saying is you don't have to lie cheat and steal to get to the top in EVE, it;s just the easiest and most popular route.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#145 - 2012-04-21 16:30:26 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
So I have a question for all you folks who insist that anyone who behaves anti-socially in-game MUST also be sociopaths out-of-game as well. Do you agree with the man in this interview?

Jack Thompson is a man who believes that video games turn people into killers. Essentially he believes that if a person is allowed to act out in an anti-social manner in a video game, that they will do it in real life.

Now, as I understand it, a few of you also seem to think this way, so tell me, would you agree with him? Mind you, this is a man who would have all video games banned. Even a video game as innocuous as The Sims.


It all seems a little irrational and far-fetched when you listen to them doesn't it. I couldn't watch all of it honestly. Between the raging film maker subtitling through the entire thing in an uninformed fanboy way, and the postulating of the speaker suggesting video games turned people into killers it was just too much.

Anyway, I do agree in part at least with the basic idea presented there. You shouldn't let kids play video games like GTA, and you should restrict their access to the internet. The internet can be a very bad place my friends. Smile Actually serious about that; there are a lot of very weird deviant sorts out there that like to corrupt minds, and not just young ones.

Anyway, children are maleable, easily influenced, and if you have any decency you will not subject them to the likes of Grand Theft Auto. There are plenty of video games that they can play with little or no inappropriate influences but that is not one of them.

I'd rather my kids watched Game of Thrones with all its nudity and violence than have them play that game. At least there are morals and lessons to be learned from such a TV series. I'd still hesitate to let them see it-or anything like it-till they were older though.

Point is, that children, (even up to the age of 14 and after), are developing opinions and views about the world, their place in it, and what they believe to be not only right and wrong, but acceptable and appropriate behaviours. There is a reasonn why tales told ages ago were intended to have a moral, and why they revealed consequences for evil or unsavory acts. They were intended to teach, and we have all but forgotten that now, as a society.

So yes, fundamentally I agree with such trash and tripe as was in that video, but on a more intuitive level I am fully aware that it is prejudiced and perhaps even hypocritical of them. Reasonably, I argue that they are speaking without objectivity and speaking out of their arses.

In short, they have no idea what they are talking about and probably couldn't carel less about it or anyones children, or even the future of mankind. It's just an ego trip for a bunch of self indulgent, over-opinionated windbags, (okay, I never heard what the rest of them had to say, so it's just the first guy to whom I am referring), who are inflating their own egos while preaching to the choir.

They make movies about stuff like this. The Postman comes to mind. What was the name of the guy who wrote that book that everyone thought was the second coming or something. Eventually the world order collapsed and a whole bunch of other stuff, and this all made up the background for the movie? Good movie though.


The name of the guy was Nathan Holn. God I love The Postman. Jack Thompson not only believes that video games like Grand Theft Auto should be kept out of the hands of kids. He believes they should be kept out of the hands of everybody.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#146 - 2012-04-21 19:40:31 UTC
Here is an interesting blog that I think is relevant to this topic.

http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/living-a-lie-the-truth-behind-the-name/


It is about a someone who was drawn to eve due to the spying aspect of eve. I don't want to say more because she is a much better writer than I am and I would just botch it.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#147 - 2012-04-21 19:56:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Poker, monopoly, and chess all have a common, clear, and defined goal intrinsic and necessary for winning the game. Eve does not. Comparing Eve to these games is fundamentally wrong.

You don't have to betray or scam in order to "win" Eve. And you definitely don't have to be a prick or sadistical a*hole either. Sure, you can make it your own personal goals and choose to do these things. But they are not intrinsic in the sense that you have to or else you will lose.

That's what makes these comparisons to Eve (usually chess, poker, and monopoly) a flawed argument.




What does that matter though? Deception for personal gain is a part of EVE and it's a part of Poker. You don't have to bluff at Poker if you don't want to. In fact you're quite at liberty to simply show everyone your cards whenever you like.

I personally play EVE the "dumb" way and have never scammed or corp-thieved, but I don't think that makes me, the physical human being behind Malcanis a better person than, say, the real actual person behind Istvaan Shogutsu. It's just the way I choose to play this particular character.

I've done the roleplaying a mean sonofabitch thing and done it damb well thank you - I used to love playing AD&D, Rolemaster, Travaller, etc, with a bunch of my friends, and in several of the campaigns we played, I was the sneakiest, trickiest weasel you could imagine. You want an RP challenge? Try staying on the right side of a Good-aligned party including a Paladin and a Cavalier when you're a True-Neutral, whilst still maintaining your alignment. (To this day I maintain that I can produce a perfectly watertight moral and legal justification for my secret police murder-squad, I tell you!)

When my poor old I-Am-Not-A-Crook TN guy finally came to grief and his schemes were revealed, I didn't hate my friends for playing their characters and Doing The Right Thing, and they didn't kick me out of the group for being a lying murdering (although it wasn't murder, I tell you!) thief, they agreed that I'd done an awesome job of maintaining true neutrality and that I'd played the game really well to escape with my character's life and all his tastefully chosen slection of magical items.

And when I came up with a way to bring him back.... they also congratulated me on finding a way to make them an offer they couldn't bring themselves to refuse. No hard feelings again.

I'm not a sociopath, I'm not a bad person, but I did do a damb fine job of playing a character who was a borderline one. It was interesting and fun and challenging, and it contributed to the learning, fun and challenge of the game that the other players enjoyed.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2012-04-21 20:08:40 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Traveller
My favourite RPG. EVE Online is the closest realization to that fantastic game and universe. Oh how I wish EVE had its own version of The Spinward Marches.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#149 - 2012-04-21 20:12:22 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Traveller
My favourite RPG. EVE Online is the closest realization to that fantastic game and universe. Oh how I wish EVE had its own version of The Spinward Marches.


I preferred Spacemaster, but that was perhaps because the guy who ran the Traveller campaign wasn't as good a GM

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#150 - 2012-04-21 20:12:51 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Poker, monopoly, and chess all have a common, clear, and defined goal intrinsic and necessary for winning the game. Eve does not. Comparing Eve to these games is fundamentally wrong.

You don't have to betray or scam in order to "win" Eve. And you definitely don't have to be a prick or sadistical a*hole either. Sure, you can make it your own personal goals and choose to do these things. But they are not intrinsic in the sense that you have to or else you will lose.

That's what makes these comparisons to Eve (usually chess, poker, and monopoly) a flawed argument.




What does that matter though? Deception for personal gain is a part of EVE and it's a part of Poker. You don't have to bluff at Poker if you don't want to. In fact you're quite at liberty to simply show everyone your cards whenever you like.
...


Your constant leaning on poker as a game for deceiptful people makes me wonder if you think faking a pass in basketball is also decieptful.

Misdirection becomes unethical/deceiptful only when you know the party you are misdirecting trusts you. In poker, chess and basketball you know they are not trusting you. In eve they are trusting you. And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2012-04-21 20:37:44 UTC
Cearain wrote:
And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character.
Well, then they are silly, because they likely know nothing about the real person. They are trusting nothing more than a caricature, a character.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#152 - 2012-04-21 20:40:26 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Cearain wrote:
And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character.
Well, then they are silly, because they likely know nothing about the real person. They are trusting nothing more than a caricature, a character.

I trust you, so you can't cheat me ~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#153 - 2012-04-21 20:52:40 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Poker, monopoly, and chess all have a common, clear, and defined goal intrinsic and necessary for winning the game. Eve does not. Comparing Eve to these games is fundamentally wrong.

You don't have to betray or scam in order to "win" Eve. And you definitely don't have to be a prick or sadistical a*hole either. Sure, you can make it your own personal goals and choose to do these things. But they are not intrinsic in the sense that you have to or else you will lose.

That's what makes these comparisons to Eve (usually chess, poker, and monopoly) a flawed argument.




What does that matter though? Deception for personal gain is a part of EVE and it's a part of Poker. You don't have to bluff at Poker if you don't want to. In fact you're quite at liberty to simply show everyone your cards whenever you like.
...


Your constant leaning on poker as a game for deceiptful people makes me wonder if you think faking a pass in basketball is also decieptful.

Misdirection becomes unethical/deceiptful only when you know the party you are misdirecting trusts you. In poker, chess and basketball you know they are not trusting you. In eve they are trusting you. And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character.


Welcome to EVE.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#154 - 2012-04-21 21:03:15 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Cearain wrote:
And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character.
Well, then they are silly, because they likely know nothing about the real person. They are trusting nothing more than a caricature, a character.



How do you know? Do you not think people who play this game, get to know eachother in real life?

Plus I think you have it reversed. I usually know very little about the character but instead talk to the people playing the character.


I have never been in vent were people were actually role playing their character. It is clearly a conversation with another real person. We don't even talk about eve allot of the time.

I hardly know anything about peoples characters unless I decide to read a role play blog about the character.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#155 - 2012-04-21 21:26:41 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Cearain wrote:
And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character.
Well, then they are silly, because they likely know nothing about the real person. They are trusting nothing more than a caricature, a character.

I trust you, so you can't cheat me ~


No you don't, so it’s fine. Anyway cheating is allowed, so there is no cheating.

I do think there is a gray area in eve. I'm not saying that everyone who deceived people over vent in this game are horrible people. But some are. And for some of them ripping off people who they got to trust them in eve is just being themselves.

It’s not so much that I am surprised or horrified that someone got defrauded out of a few hundred dollars worth of internet space ships.

What I find surprising is how naive certain players are in thinking, that none of the lying for spaceship glory could be the result of people who are indeed just scumbags. Rotten people doing what comes naturally to them. You know, there are, in fact, ****** people in real life. And they can download eve just like you can. And they very well may enjoy being deceitful to people in relation to this game just like in every other aspect of their lives.

I also find it interesting how defensive people get.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2012-04-21 23:09:04 UTC
Cearain wrote:
What I find surprising is how naive certain players are in thinking, that none of the lying for spaceship glory could be the result of people who are indeed just scumbags. Rotten people doing what comes naturally to them. You know, there are, in fact, ****** people in real life. And they can download eve just like you can. And they very well may enjoy being deceitful to people in relation to this game just like in every other aspect of their lives.
You make fine and valid points.

What pisses me off is that some people will paint anyone who ganks a Hulk as a socio/psychopath, a generally bad person in real life. That attitude/thinking/reasoning is simply garbage.
Basileus Volkan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#157 - 2012-04-22 04:56:18 UTC
The Golden Rule is not the be-all-end-all of moral philosophy. It's not even a very good rule in real life since it more often than not leads to situations where either choice violates the Rule.

It also never took into account the possibilities of a virtual world where antisocial behavior is practically encouraged.

You seem to be adamant on dismissing the personal responsibility of the offended party. They don't exist in a vacuum, the universe around them does not know about their emotional state or investment into the game and even then hardly anyone would care. EvE "society" if you can call it that is inherently clannish in nature which means "Screw everyone else who doesn't belong to my circle of friends!" Everyone playing the game should well be aware of that fact so being upset about getting scammed or blown up is silly at best and irrational at worst.
Adunh Slavy
#158 - 2012-04-22 05:03:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
Basileus Volkan wrote:

You seem to be adamant on dismissing the personal responsibility of the offended party. They don't exist in a vacuum, the universe around them does not know about their emotional state or investment into the game and even then hardly anyone would care. EvE "society" if you can call it that is inherently clannish in nature which means "Screw everyone else who doesn't belong to my circle of friends!" Everyone playing the game should well be aware of that fact so being upset about getting scammed or blown up is silly at best and irrational at worst.


Again, you are trying to determine what other's should think, or how they feel and attempting to justify it with moral relativisim. Yet you seem to get upset when they appear, from your perspective, to be doing it to you. Who's fault is that?

You are saying "Screw everyone that doesn't want to play or think about Eve the same way I do." Your position is just as irrational as theirs, by your own definition. Karma is a *****, ain't it?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#159 - 2012-04-22 06:09:40 UTC
Knowing these things are in EVE doesn't mean I am somehow duty bound to do them or even accept them. I don't participate in scams, refuse to cheat people in a concerted effort and advocate against them when on the forums or confronted on such things in game. I actually do more for the scammers and cheats than I do for the 'honest' player in being that way. If it just became second nature to be a full fledged ******* in EVE with no integrity, what would set such a person apart from the other 399,999 people playing?

"I'm a scamming thief in EVE Online"
Yea, so what, get in line behind the other half a million scamming thieves in EVE online.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Jumfat Kohlah
Dark Sacred Night
#160 - 2012-04-22 09:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jumfat Kohlah
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

This cannot be described as anything other than real psychopathic behaviour. These two individuals targeted another player with the express goal of convincing that person to spend hard-earned money, money that person likely would not have spent on GTCs otherwise

so that they could profit from his real-world loss.

Not too mention that they revelled in their target's losses afterwards, especially the fact that they convinced the player to spend real money on their eventual scam

That is reprehensible behaviour. It is psychopathic behaviour. Nothing virtual about it.


Good read btw - but just like to pick up on on point ....^^ that one....

the scammers profited from the deal in-game so they did not affect his real life - if what you wrote in your post is what you believe in. Did they then change the modules gained into rl money and run off cackling with delight into the night? Because reasoning states that this is the only way they could profit from the loss in real life
Of course they had to affect the person in-game to effect the purchase - and the pressure felt by the recipient was "real" enough to do something about it ...which in this case was spend rl money to produce the required result. His choice..

Sorry - your premise is flawed

Whether virtual or real - the psychological factors that drive people to do what they want to do are inherent in the person. This is what they would do and possibly do do in real life. The difference is sociological guidelines as laid down by our parents/communities and legal consequences stop them doing it.
My example is Chribba - how has he managed to gain the respect and trust of the community if he wasn't like that in RL

Consider that there are also people in other parts of the world that consider that there is nothing wrong with scamming and causing distress. They are "wired" that way and have not the same moral compass as we do

Doesn't matter whether it is virtual or not - they would still do it. And anonymity is a bonus because they will not have consequences

You are what you are, whether anonymous or not.