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Raw vs Finished Materials/Products

Author
Alaric Maduin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-04-19 02:04:47 UTC
Hello all,

So I'm new to the game and I've been making an effort to establish myself as a successful trader. In the process of this, it occurred to me that completed products (ship parts, ships themselves, etc) might be more valuable if torn down into their component parts (the minerals that went into it). Similarly, I've eyed the prices of unrefined veldspar, scordite, kernite, etc. and wondered how those prices measured up to the refined minerals (tritanium, pyerite, mexallon, etc.).

I'm aware that one could figure this out with some detailed number-crunching, but I've always been averse to math. I was wondering if there are any pre-made calculators/spreadsheets/applications out there that people know of that I could use to figure these things out. I've searched the forums and such a thing isn't readily apparent.

Thank you all very much ahead of time,

Alaric Maduin
Dennmoth Ferdier
Zero Gravity Productions
#2 - 2012-04-19 02:28:25 UTC
I could whip up an excel sheet for you, for a nominal fee Bear

Riddick Liddell
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-04-19 03:35:48 UTC
Markets in EVE have been stalemate for years. Any trading is done based on projected changes based on seasons. There are certain times of the year demand in EVE is higher and prices spike. If you catch the low demand, buy and then sell in high demand you profit.

As an alternative, if you are filthy rich you can manipulate and day trade. A practice known as .01 ISK'ing is another example of manipulation. Most .01 ISK'ing is a fish to see if they can start a price war and the real mission is to bid up to sell, not to buy. In terms of supply and demand and cost, it has all been crunched to a razor thing line long ago.
Dennmoth Ferdier
Zero Gravity Productions
#4 - 2012-04-19 12:52:30 UTC
The post above me is false on all accounts.

In MD just now there's a guy making a blog about his trading career how he made 5000 isk in to 1 billion isk in 4 weeks, and will only scale up.

There are margins, there are lots and lots of fabulous profits to be made, but you need some wits.
JVLP
Dark Nexxus
S0ns of Anarchy
#5 - 2012-04-19 13:12:44 UTC
Alaric Maduin wrote:
Hello all,

... successful trader...

... averse to math...



No time like now to get your math on.

You are correct that refining is a great skill to have. Melt-and-sell can be very profitable.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#6 - 2012-04-19 16:10:06 UTC
I think what the OP was getting at is often times finished products seem to be worth less than there component parts.

This does happen but is generally the result of one of two things

Bulk ore can sometimes be worth more than the minerals it contains. The primary reason for this is logistics. Refining the ore into minerals drastically reduces the volume you need to haul. In systems where there is no access to 50% facilities ore is often sold unprocessed, although generally if you can refine at 100% there is a little profit to be made.

The biggest place where this discrepancy is seen is in PI mats. Generally the P1 is worth significantly more than the P2 and P3 that you would make from it. However producing P2 and P3 drastically reduces the volume you need to move. Do you move 50 million isk worth of P1 needing 10 trips or do you make the P3 and move 40 million isk in 1 trip. Logistics is a big factor

The other scenario is what has been seen a lot lately. With a rapid rise in mineral prices there are many items on the market that were manufactured with minerals bought when the prices where much lower. As the mineral prices rise, some minerals rising hundreds of isk in very short amounts of time, products existing on the market can become worth less than there base mineral value as a direct result of the rising mineral prices.

You have to be very fast to take advantage of this as many of the trader tycoons manipulate the mineral prices for just this purpose. For example not long ago a freighter was around 800 million isk now they are well over 1 billion isk. Since they are made completely from minerals in huge volumes a rapid rise in the price of one of those minerals can very quickly put the mineral value of that ship higher than its sell price. Anyone with perfect reprocessing skills and enough isk could buy up all the ships on market as the mineral price rises past that point. The manufacturers selling the ships are never as quick to update prices as the traders trading the minerals

I am sure there are many dreads and carriers for sale in null that are well below current Jita mineral prices. The problem is getting those minerals to market when you find those ships.
Debiru
Universal Fleet Operations
#7 - 2012-04-19 17:44:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Debiru
First thing you have to do for this is train Scrap Metal Processing V. Then you just have to calculate the cost of the minerals it takes to build the item you're looking at, and then find that item for sale for cheaper than the build cost. This happens frequently with overproduced goods. It also happened with goods when a person drops a single 1-quantity sell order for way under market price to get it sold quickly only to be followed by amateur industrialists who then undercut him so as not to lose a sale.. Even though they've just reduced overall profits from where it'd be if they had just been patient for an hour.

If you want to be a dear, buy the 2.5b ISK worth of Hurricanes being flooded into the Dodixie market at 44m so we can restore the price to 47m and give us daily bulk sellers our profits back.


Until then, I'll be in the Noctis room while my alt freighter flies around the edges of Gallente space grabbing the cheap mineral sales.
Trollin
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-04-20 18:33:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Trollin
math=answer

searching=answer

asking questions=smacktalk and attention, 2 things u dont want unless u are trollin

We are our own worst enemy.

Trollin
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-04-20 18:43:55 UTC
You would be better off using human nature against your audience, people love to attempt to prove how "dumb you are/smart they are" the best way to get a question answered is to make a public assertion that you know is false, and let their nature to prove themselves smarter than you kick in and answer your question that you have carefully concealed in ineptitude

We are our own worst enemy.

LoreSpade Indigo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-04-21 16:32:36 UTC
Honestly. Any item can have More or less value based on how much you are willing to spend on it, and if people are willing to trust your new price. I can make a pretty decent amount of isk on a finnished product way more that the refined cost if you was to melt it down. Math aside. If you are trading an item Just play in between the margins. Dont worry to much on get rich quick put in some legwork. Speculate. and do more than someone else is willing to go. That gets you rich.
Dr Silkworth
#11 - 2012-04-21 18:59:29 UTC
Why don't you head on over to the science and industry forums and have a look at that sticky.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#12 - 2012-04-22 05:36:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ioci
Dennmoth Ferdier wrote:
The post above me is false on all accounts.

In MD just now there's a guy making a blog about his trading career how he made 5000 isk in to 1 billion isk in 4 weeks, and will only scale up.

There are margins, there are lots and lots of fabulous profits to be made, but you need some wits.


No, this post is absolute rubbish.
If you could flip a billion on 5000 ISK in a month like turning on a tap every Tom, **** and Harry in EVE would be a trillionaire, Plex would cost 9 figure and a Battleship woul go for a billion ISK.

The fact that some guy "wrote a blog" about it just screams scam.

As for raw and finished buy orders drag down averages. You really need to look at the actual ingame market to see what stuff actually sells for. Add to that with the manipulations going on right now, yes there are in fact alot of things available above reproc because they are priced on an outdated market rate. If you happen on such an order, buy it. It's really that simple.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#13 - 2012-04-23 00:06:10 UTC
Ioci wrote:
Dennmoth Ferdier wrote:
The post above me is false on all accounts.

In MD just now there's a guy making a blog about his trading career how he made 5000 isk in to 1 billion isk in 4 weeks, and will only scale up.

There are margins, there are lots and lots of fabulous profits to be made, but you need some wits.


No, this post is absolute rubbish.
If you could flip a billion on 5000 ISK in a month like turning on a tap every Tom, **** and Harry in EVE would be a trillionaire, Plex would cost 9 figure and a Battleship woul go for a billion ISK.

The fact that some guy "wrote a blog" about it just screams scam.

As for raw and finished buy orders drag down averages. You really need to look at the actual ingame market to see what stuff actually sells for. Add to that with the manipulations going on right now, yes there are in fact alot of things available above reproc because they are priced on an outdated market rate. If you happen on such an order, buy it. It's really that simple.


Fact is the markets are so centralized that you've got thousands or even tens of thousands of people all doing the same thing you are doing. It doesn't matter what you think of, there is somebody else out there doing it, and probably doing a 100 other things as well.

This is why I never got into trading much. When I can literally place a sell order and watch it get beat in 45 seconds or less on a specific item, then watch someone else beat that, and modify the order yet again and see the same thing happen it's not worth it. Of course, that was back in the days when Market bots were more prolific I think, where they are not as bad now.

Still, you have a lot of competition and at the very least you will be trying to trade without a loss while competing with people who may or may not be doing it cheaper than you, or may even decide to take a loss just to shut you out of the game or get you lower so they can buy yours up and jump back to where they were with twice the sell order.

It's a lovely system, and quite demanding on your time if you really want to get into it. Market research is pointless in many respects because it fluctuates and changes all the time or just sits stale and doesn't move. A quick check can tell you one way or another what to expect, but doesn't guarantee any long term projections either.

It's like the current mineral prices. They are pure speculation based on Hulkageddon and to some extent Escalation and Inferno. Changes like the drone alloy drops and various other things will make a difference, but what that amounts to exactly is anyones guess and probably has very little to do with current market speculation.

Sometime market speculation is entirely player driven and manipulated as I believe is the current case with minerals. They are not going to continue to go up. They are going to drop through the floor and leave a lot of people with some very pricy stock in storage. Yet, how can they sell now, when the price is so high? Not likely to happen is it, but the people driving it are likely already flush and haven't got a stitch of stock having already dropped it into late speculators hands.

Funny isn't it?
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Johnny Frecko
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#14 - 2012-04-23 19:19:20 UTC
I disagree with almost everything mars wrote:

"Fact is the markets are so centralized that you've got thousands or even tens of thousands of people all doing the same thing you are doing. It doesn't matter what you think of, there is somebody else out there doing it, and probably doing a 100 other things as well."

-false? the markets aren't centralized at all.

"This is why I never got into trading much. When I can literally place a sell order and watch it get beat in 45 seconds or less on a specific item, then watch someone else beat that, and modify the order yet again and see the same thing happen it's not worth it. Of course, that was back in the days when Market bots were more prolific I think, where they are not as bad now."

- Yes bots have left, And yes people will outbid you, But most people agree that trading is the "best" and "Easiest" form of making ISK.
many people got their first billion from trading.

"it's a lovely system, and quite demanding on your time if you really want to get into it. Market research is pointless in many respects because it fluctuates and changes all the time or just sits stale and doesn't move. A quick check can tell you one way or another what to expect, but doesn't guarantee any long term projections either. "

-Market research is key, especially when it moves rapidly. If you don't benefit from it you're doing it wrong.


Sometime market speculation is entirely player driven and manipulated as I believe is the current case with minerals. They are not going to continue to go up. They are going to drop through the floor and leave a lot of people with some very pricy stock in storage. Yet, how can they sell now, when the price is so high? Not likely to happen is it, but the people driving it are likely already flush and haven't got a stitch of stock having already dropped it into late speculators hands.

-False, While the price is driven by speculations, the speculations have alot to do with what prices will be like when the expansion and changes hit. Why do you think zydrine is at 1700 and not 3K per unit? even though most people that know anything predict it will cross the 2.5K(just like the pre-drone era).

Prices are not going to fall through the floor, if anything we'll see a slight hiccup in the upward trend, and then the new expansions will hit, increasing the demand pressure on the market.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-04-24 02:18:55 UTC
its possible, however you almsot cannot do it from sell orders, and if you can definatly not in trade hubs.
your best bet is to put buy orders up in gallente or minmitar space ( less populated)
you also want perfect refine skills and standings to get 100% of the minerals back.

usually ore isn't the best to buy, modules are that people think are worthless or works but everyone expects or to give minerals.