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Why can't null sec capsuleers or factions shut down jump gates?
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Wu Jiaqiu
#1 - 2012-04-18 21:06:20 UTC
Title.

I can't imagine why hostile ships can jump through without the permission of the staff working for their faction and living in these gates.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#2 - 2012-04-18 21:09:33 UTC
Because Capsuleers do not own or operate stargates.

Katrina Oniseki
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#3 - 2012-04-18 21:10:25 UTC
Though an alliance may hold sovereignty of a system, and though the stargate may be of a particular empire's design specifications, the gates are owned and operated by CONCORD, which is an overwhelmingly neutral entity when it comes to the squabbles between empires and capsuleer alliances.

At least, the public ones we all see and use. The empires and criminal groups alike own their own stargates in deadspace pockets.
Wu Jiaqiu
#4 - 2012-04-18 21:18:09 UTC
Yes but what is to stop the Amarr from storming the gate with soldiers and ships and jut take it over? Is concord that much of a deadly force?
Wu Jiaqiu
#5 - 2012-04-18 21:21:28 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Because Capsuleers do not own or operate stargates.


Then what is the meaning of sovereignty in null sec regions if they can not operate gates? Are the Angels, Serptentis or pirate factions the operators of the gates?

EDIT: In Non-NPC nullsec space
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#6 - 2012-04-18 21:47:14 UTC
Probably some jove conspiracy... For the record though, I am not aware of anyone actually trying to shut down or remove a stargate, however since concord can stop me from cloaking, something tells me they have a great deal of control over what my ship can and cannot do..... Which makes you really wonder why I and other capsuleers were allowed to assist master Kuvakei in the promised land, or his agents in many other upliftings.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#7 - 2012-04-18 22:05:59 UTC
Wu Jiaqiu wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Because Capsuleers do not own or operate stargates.


Then what is the meaning of sovereignty in null sec regions if they can not operate gates? Are the Angels, Serptentis or pirate factions the operators of the gates?

EDIT: In Non-NPC nullsec space


No, they are not the operators of their regions' stargate networks. Have you ever been denied stargate use because you shot some Serpentis in Serpentis territory? I didn't think so.

I'm also fairly certain the Big Four empires (Caldari State, Gallente Federation, Amarr Empire, Minmatar Republic) are the only entities who operate (and build) their own stargates, and even they must abide by CONCORD's service and usage laws.

Katrina Oniseki
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#8 - 2012-04-18 23:15:00 UTC
Though this does beg the question who exactly controls the stargates in Serpentis, Cartel etc systems.

Because if it is CONCORD I can't help but wonder why they wouldn't use this to their advantage.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#9 - 2012-04-19 00:07:55 UTC
Whenever I am near a gate when some vile criminal pops through, I think to myself, "now, sweeties, why didn't you just deny them the jump in the first place?" Primitive (wooden)gate-using societies understood that (wooden)gates weren't very secure if anyone who knocked was let through.

At what point did (star)gate-using societies discard that precious knowledge?

On the one hand, it is tempting to assume there are shadow transactions between forces unseen who somehow benefit from the absence of even a primitive understanding of security.

On the other hand, never ascribe to malice what stupidity explains just fine.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-04-19 07:14:11 UTC
My gut wants to make some assertion along the lines of the idea that the empires know they can't stop movement of enemy combatants and criminals, so they don't bother to try, but that doesn't hold water - even if you can't stop such traffic, you can greatly impede it by shutting off its access to the fastest and most convenient means of interstellar travel, and it makes perfect sense to do so.

The next excuse I want to jump to revolves around CONCORD, but CONCORD only really exists because the four empires agree it does. It one empire started wanting to regain full self-determination, CONCORD could leverage the other three empires to stop them, but if they all decided they no longer wished to be bound by CONCORD's oversight, there's very little that CONCORD could realistically do to force them. The gates are presumably kept running and entirely unfiltered by CONCORD order, but that still doesn't explain why CONCORD would let CONCORD-designated criminal entities use them with impunity.

Excuses about making it easy for capsuleers to assist them, but that doesn't make sense either. They can let anyone with a good enough standing through while turning away the rest. It really makes no sense to me at all.

So really, I'm going to have to be honest here and say I really have no idea.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#11 - 2012-04-19 09:25:27 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Though this does beg the question who exactly controls the stargates in Serpentis, Cartel etc systems.

Because if it is CONCORD I can't help but wonder why they wouldn't use this to their advantage.


I... do not know. My guess is that CONCORD controls the stargates in nullsec too, but it is a matter of capsuleer stargate network falling into their jurisdiction. If capsuleers are allowed to take over sovereignty in a lot of nullsec regions it is also because it is a source of exploration and wealth for the core empire regions. And as it is a capsuleer centered activity, it is naturally monitored by CONCORD operatives. Remember to whom capsuleers have to pay for establishing a sovereignty.

All these nullsec stargates though, are a minority compared to smuggler, pirate, and civilian stargates that exist all around the cluster.

Gosakumori Noh wrote:
Whenever I am near a gate when some vile criminal pops through, I think to myself, "now, sweeties, why didn't you just deny them the jump in the first place?" Primitive (wooden)gate-using societies understood that (wooden)gates weren't very secure if anyone who knocked was let through.

At what point did (star)gate-using societies discard that precious knowledge?

On the one hand, it is tempting to assume there are shadow transactions between forces unseen who somehow benefit from the absence of even a primitive understanding of security.

On the other hand, never ascribe to malice what stupidity explains just fine.


Capsuleer standard stargates are far from being the only stargates in existence. CONCORD and the Empires also can not record and keep an eye on every conventional ship either. It is only logical that pirate elements can travel almost anywhere.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:
My gut wants to make some assertion along the lines of the idea that the empires know they can't stop movement of enemy combatants and criminals, so they don't bother to try, but that doesn't hold water - even if you can't stop such traffic, you can greatly impede it by shutting off its access to the fastest and most convenient means of interstellar travel, and it makes perfect sense to do so.

The next excuse I want to jump to revolves around CONCORD, but CONCORD only really exists because the four empires agree it does. It one empire started wanting to regain full self-determination, CONCORD could leverage the other three empires to stop them, but if they all decided they no longer wished to be bound by CONCORD's oversight, there's very little that CONCORD could realistically do to force them. The gates are presumably kept running and entirely unfiltered by CONCORD order, but that still doesn't explain why CONCORD would let CONCORD-designated criminal entities use them with impunity.

Excuses about making it easy for capsuleers to assist them, but that doesn't make sense either. They can let anyone with a good enough standing through while turning away the rest. It really makes no sense to me at all.

So really, I'm going to have to be honest here and say I really have no idea.


At the risk of falling into pure speculation, we have to keep in mind that CONCORD, even if supported and funded by all signatories, has now gained a lot of independance and autonomy. They would probably have to stand down if all the four factions wanted it, yes. Though I wonder what the fifth signatory would have to say on the matter. Maybe nothing.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-04-19 11:11:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
in case you hadn't noticed, CONCORD does deny criminals permission to jump through the gate network... so long as they have an active aggression flag or GCC.

a capsuleer who isn't currently flagged is a potent economic force. We represent a mobile accumulation of incredible wealth, and wherever we go is where that money lands. it's in CONCORD's interests that said money and power be allowed to flow largely unimpeded around New Eden, hence why the GCC system is in place, as opposed to a more permanent manhunt.

That's why people like Ethan Verone are free to fly around without CONCORD denying him permission to use any of the stargates, and why stations grant him permission to dock. He's worth an incredible amount of ISK. Sure, I know there are plenty of DED officers and Federation Navy personnel who'd like to have a word with him, but the organisation as a whole actually benefits more from a free Verone than an imprisoned one.

That's not corruption, by the way - that's their policy.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-04-19 11:42:29 UTC
I believe that Stitcher just hit the nail on the head. I don't think CONCORD would appreciate the heat they got from the combined forces of all of New Eden's major players if CONCORD were denying so large of an opportunity to land in their laps.

This is also an explanation for why a hostile acquisition of star-gates would be a political faux pas and isn't something that (that I know of) is a major threat.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Wu Jiaqiu
#14 - 2012-04-19 13:15:28 UTC
Anyone think we need someone from CCP to clarify this?
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#15 - 2012-04-19 13:20:11 UTC
... Who's CCP?

And Verin - the jumping restriction for those with an active GCC only applies in high security space. In lowsec the only things that are going to prevent you from jumping are the short-term aggression timer and traffic control.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Unit XS365BT
Unit Commune
#16 - 2012-04-19 14:01:45 UTC
Is it not Interbus who control the vast majority of stargates? a corporation known to be perhaps the most neutral entity within the cluster.

We Return

Unit XS365BT. Designated Communications Officer. Unit Commune.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-04-19 14:02:33 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
... Who's CCP?

And Verin - the jumping restriction for those with an active GCC only applies in high security space. In lowsec the only things that are going to prevent you from jumping are the short-term aggression timer and traffic control.


Weird alliance of capsuleer recluses that the Jovians for some reason allow to hold territory inside Jove Empire space. I've never met any of them, personally.

And sure, I know the GCC only applies in highsec. It doesn't change my point, however.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#18 - 2012-04-19 14:15:00 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
And sure, I know the GCC only applies in highsec. It doesn't change my point, however.


Change, no. Clarify, yes - your wording implied another reality entirely, one that would make life hilariously difficult for those who consider their outlaw security rating a badge of honor. Blink

It was a distinction worth noting before someone panicked and started screaming about CONCORD changing protocol without notifying anyone.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#19 - 2012-04-19 15:45:27 UTC
The answer is really quite simple: They're the right combination of useful and expensive.

**Vherokior **
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#20 - 2012-04-19 16:42:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Gosakumori Noh
Lyn Farel wrote:

Capsuleer standard stargates are far from being the only stargates in existence. CONCORD and the Empires also can not record and keep an eye on every conventional ship either. It is only logical that pirate elements can travel almost anywhere


Devious, independently constructed jump gates are fine for pirate factions wandering far from home. For traffic passing through non-independently constructed gates, however, CONCORD (or anyone with an floatie talkie), could ask the destination: "what are your patrols going to think of 'asdgh1234' should he appear?"

Now, if CONCORD-or-whoever were particularly clever, they would implement a scheme not unlike that they employ with corporations: "Oh, you want your little pod to go through *this* gate, do you? Well, it so happens they want to shoot you on the other side and I would look awfully silly for letting... oh, this is terrible, someone has forgotten their wallet... Damn, that clever bastard 'asdgh1234' tiptoed behind me while I was distracted by a good deed!
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