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Aggression/Log off issues
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Avon
#41 - 2011-09-28 23:38:28 UTC
Cherry Nobyl wrote:
Hobogear wrote:

no he landed on the gate and jump into us. he stayed cloaked. he logged off. we pointed him and got to him to hull but the ship just disappeared.




then i have 2 questions for you:

1) how long did you have at the point of placing a point to apply damage? it's either 1 minute, or 15 minutes. if it's 1 minute, then there's a valid complaint and a possibly bugged mechanism. if it's the full 15 minute aggression timer then we move on to q 2.

2)what type of ships were applying dps? if you had 15 minutes to apply damage, then there was some thing wrong with your composition on the gate. if you had 1 minute, then yes virginia, santa claus has died in your chimney.


If he logs while cloaked he will not get aggro, so the 15 minute timer will not apply.
Hobogear
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2011-09-29 00:20:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Hobogear wrote:
Please tell me where it is stated in the "rules" by ccp this is ok.
It doesn't work that way.
You need to show that it's illegal, because that is how the rules work.

As it happens (and unfortunately for you), logging off to escape campsanything has been confirmed as legal by the GMs for many many years now… Largely because that's the most balanced way of doing things when ye olde Internet is involved. As a concession, you have the disappearance timer if you actually manage to aggress the target while he's online.
Frozen Eddie Johnson wrote:
People in this thread defending the logoffski "tactic" are sad, and a large part of what is wrong with EVE nowadays.
…aside from the fact that “nowadays” stretches back for several years by now. It's legal. There are tactics to work around it. And the tactic can be used in both directions, so meh.



Ccp is not on record saying that logging off to avoid combat is legal. Your lies are getting a bit old Tippia. They have only stated with the internet they are giving pilots the benifit of the doubt. CCP failed to see how little backbone most of their player base has.


Like stated earlier 1 in 1000 maybe actually have this issue the time they jump threw a gate in a 5 billion isk ship not including cargo and drop internet.
Barbens
Saitanic Cult
#43 - 2011-09-29 00:33:16 UTC
A character cannot be kicked or leave a corporation while in space...that solves the issue of log-on/leave corp...


Barbs

I asked Bhallgorn if you should click this link, this is what he said...
Hobogear
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2011-09-29 00:45:16 UTC
Barbens wrote:
A character cannot be kicked or leave a corporation while in space...that solves the issue of log-on/leave corp...


Barbs



well he did somehow get out of corp while in space. we have petitioned it.
Jita Alt666
#45 - 2011-09-29 00:47:35 UTC
Hobogear wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Hobogear wrote:
Please tell me where it is stated in the "rules" by ccp this is ok.
It doesn't work that way.
You need to show that it's illegal, because that is how the rules work.

As it happens (and unfortunately for you), logging off to escape campsanything has been confirmed as legal by the GMs for many many years now… Largely because that's the most balanced way of doing things when ye olde Internet is involved. As a concession, you have the disappearance timer if you actually manage to aggress the target while he's online.
Frozen Eddie Johnson wrote:
People in this thread defending the logoffski "tactic" are sad, and a large part of what is wrong with EVE nowadays.
…aside from the fact that “nowadays” stretches back for several years by now. It's legal. There are tactics to work around it. And the tactic can be used in both directions, so meh.



Ccp is not on record saying that logging off to avoid combat is legal. Your lies are getting a bit old Tippia. They have only stated with the internet they are giving pilots the benifit of the doubt. CCP failed to see how little backbone most of their player base has.


Like stated earlier 1 in 1000 maybe actually have this issue the time they jump threw a gate in a 5 billion isk ship not including cargo and drop internet.


What we are seeing in this thread is how little intelligence a segment of the player base has.
Use neutral alts.
Log off trick has a counter in the log on trick.
If you miss a kill - adapt figure how you can do better and get the kill next time.

Whining on the forums about how a game feature that 95% of the player base deem to be acceptable is unfair only makes you and your corp look stupid.
I personally wish to congratulate the JF pilot who managed to avoid your little camp. Well Done Sir.
Cypermethren
Perkone
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-09-29 00:54:02 UTC
Barbens wrote:
A character cannot be kicked or leave a corporation while in space...that solves the issue of log-on/leave corp...


Barbs



They actualy snuck in the change with CQ.


CCP's reasoning is to allow corporations a counter against people sabotaging them in space - people whom never dock (ie people out living in 0.0 in pos's). In those situations, the corporation was stuck with said player untill a GM petition removed them, or they player chose to leave themselves.


For the people that picked up on this change tho, it's been like a slice of heaven.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#47 - 2011-09-29 01:04:20 UTC
Hobogear wrote:
Ccp is not on record saying that logging off to avoid combat is legal.
LOL
Quote:
Your lies are getting a bit old Tippia.
So yeah, let's repeat that GM statement: “Logging on or off, no matter the circumstances, is never considered an exploit.” So you're easily bored if you think things that don't even exist are getting old.

What is getting old, though, is your abject ignorance and lack of knowledge about… oh… just about all things EVE, one might imagine. Now, please, educate yourself before making this kind of spectacle, not just about the rules and the official policies, but about the many many ways in which your perceived (but not actual) problem can be solved.
Martinez
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2011-09-29 01:38:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Hobogear wrote:
Ccp is not on record saying that logging off to avoid combat is legal.
LOL
Quote:
Your lies are getting a bit old Tippia.
So yeah, let's repeat that GM statement: “Logging on or off, no matter the circumstances, is never considered an exploit.” So you're easily bored if you think things that don't even exist are getting old.

What is getting old, though, is your abject ignorance and lack of knowledge about… oh… just about all things EVE, one might imagine. Now, please, educate yourself before making this kind of spectacle, not just about the rules and the official policies, but about the many many ways in which your perceived (but not actual) problem can be solved.





Just because that maybe CCP stance on the issue doesnt mean its right. As a matter of fact currently I would say CCP is on the wrong side of more issues than right lately. If they want to fix their game and get people active again, bring back real risk vs reward. Dont let lame ass tactics like logging off to save a ship stay in game.


I am still amazed at the people defending the JF pilot.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#49 - 2011-09-29 01:43:29 UTC
Martinez wrote:
As a matter of fact currently I would say CCP is on the wrong side of more issues than right lately.
There are those two words again: “currently” and “lately”… It has only been around since, oh, forever — so long, in fact, that it is the norm and that counters tactics have been developed.
Quote:
Dont let lame ass tactics like logging off to save a ship stay in game.
They already did.
Martinez
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#50 - 2011-09-29 02:01:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Martinez wrote:
As a matter of fact currently I would say CCP is on the wrong side of more issues than right lately.
There are those two words again: “currently” and “lately”… It has only been around since, oh, forever — so long, in fact, that it is the norm and that counters tactics have been developed.
Quote:
Dont let lame ass tactics like logging off to save a ship stay in game.
They already did.


Well i have been around eve since release, its a great game. I dont think CCP has always been wrong side until lately. This one topic i just think is one that needs a change. CCP is always changing the game and this one should change to make eve better.


Avon
#51 - 2011-09-29 17:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Avon
Martinez wrote:
[Well i have been around eve since release, its a great game. I dont think CCP has always been wrong side until lately. This one topic i just think is one that needs a change. CCP is always changing the game and this one should change to make eve better.




Problem is, there is no way of fixing this without creating even worse problems.

No being able to kick members in space meant that corps were stuck with spies unless they docked.
Extending log-off timers where there is no aggro will lead to a flood of tears from people losing ships to internet disconnects.
Allowing aggro before people decloak after jumping, or being able to decloak them in that situation, make the most risky action in Eve (jumping through a gate) far worse because people won't know what has happened because they won't have loaded the system.

If you want to kill war targets in hi-sec, bring enough people to get the job done.
Why not chase them in to 0.0 where you can bubble them ... or should it only be your civilian industrial targets that should face some risk?


The situation, whilst not perfect, is better than the alternatives.
Martinez
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#52 - 2011-09-29 18:41:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Martinez
Avon wrote:
Martinez wrote:
[Well i have been around eve since release, its a great game. I dont think CCP has always been wrong side until lately. This one topic i just think is one that needs a change. CCP is always changing the game and this one should change to make eve better.




Problem is, there is no way of fixing this without creating even worse problems.

No being able to kick members in space meant that corps were stuck with spies unless they docked.
Extending log-off timers where there is no aggro will lead to a flood of tears from people losing ships to internet disconnects.
Allowing aggro before people decloak after jumping, or being able to decloak them in that situation, make the most risky action in Eve (jumping through a gate) far worse because people won't know what has happened because they won't have loaded the system.

If you want to kill war targets in hi-sec, bring enough people to get the job done.
Why not chase them in to 0.0 where you can bubble them ... or should it only be your civilian industrial targets that should face some risk?


The situation, whilst not perfect, is better than the alternatives.



1. There was a way to boot members that refused to dock or leave corp. Contacting CCP. They took care of it. So in fact the change they made has caused a problem.

2. Dont want extended log off timers where there is no aggro. I agree there would be a flood of people claiming they lost a ship due to internet disconnects.

3. Dont want to aggro people before they uncloak after jumping threw a gate or decloaking them at all before their timer is up.

4. "Bring more" is a dumb comment. You shouldnt have to bring more if you have a industrial targeted, pointed, and doing damage to it. Yes i like to shoot Noncivilian industrial targets as well as BS, BC, and on down.

Its a easy fix. If you log off and are pointed you dont leave until you are dead or they unpoint you. Yes will that 1 out of 1000 pilot get screwed because he was the disconnect yes. But the 999 out of 1000 will die like they should.

Secondly, if you are moving a JF during wartime you should have escorts or properly scout before you jump into a system. Lets remember we are talking about pilots jumping into a system and logging off to avoid death. If you really need to log off, go to station, safespot, ect. The fact that, that action is being protected and defended on this forum is absurd.

So please tell me where this fix would cause more problems? All you are adding is reversing the removing corp member while in space and if you are pointed for that 20 seconds you log off you are pointed and hold in space.
Avon
#53 - 2011-09-29 23:29:00 UTC
We are going round in circles - if the changes you want were made all the problems I identified would occur, but you still wouldn't kill jump freighters because they would just move back to NPC corps.

You may not like it, but that's human nature.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2011-09-30 01:10:14 UTC
i too, ***** about not getting easy kills
Martinez
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2011-09-30 01:28:33 UTC
Avon wrote:
We are going round in circles - if the changes you want were made all the problems I identified would occur, but you still wouldn't kill jump freighters because they would just move back to NPC corps.

You may not like it, but that's human nature.




If the change i want are made the problems like what?

CCP devs have to remove players from corps when they wont dock or leave corp on their own? Big deal.

People ***** about being killed after they logged off or dropped internet? Should have logged off in station or in a safe place. Granted the freak chance your power/internet drop the second you jump into a gate camp there is just not anything you can do about that. I guess the "logs would show nothing". That would happen alot less than people CQ to quitting to save ships.

Allowing pilots to log off to avoid death goes against what eve is about.
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#56 - 2011-09-30 01:50:09 UTC  |  Edited by: non judgement
Talk about a crying baby.

Awwww no one will be able to see how cool you are cause you didn't get that jf kill.
Its a tactic that has been used for ages.

Even nullsec alliance fc's use it.

The term carebear should apply to highsec wardec people who cry about tactics that stop them from shooting defenceless ships.
We do care about your getting easy kills. We want you to get heaps of easy kills and get bored of it, instead of working hard for your kills.

This is you:
"Why isn't the game how I want it to be?!?!
I should be able to kill everyone and no one should get away!!"

Yeah yeah. I hear ya.
I feel the same way when I'm in my freighter. I reckon I should be able to have huge guns on it and be able to blow your ship into tiny pieces. Have you seen the size of freighters? I think they are big enough for a doomsday weapon.

What do you think?
Psymn
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2011-09-30 02:15:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Psymn
Martinez wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Martinez wrote:
There is no reason to log off during combat to save your ship.
Wow. There's a self-defeating statement if I ever saw one.
Quote:
It shouldnt be allowed in any way.
…and yet, it really can't be avoided. In fact, the game already has probably the most reasonable way of dealing with it it with its variable log-off aggression timers.



Lol here we go again, tippia and his dumb responses. This is a game, in games there are wins and losses. If you cannot afford to fly it dont fly or for the love of God dont fly it during wartime in empire.

It can be avoided, if your ship is pointed, you dont leave combat for 15 mins. Seems pretty clear to me. Either log off in a safe area during war or in 0.0, or risk your ship. The current way isnt resonable since it still allows pilots to log off to save their ship.

The fact you would defend a player logging off to save their ship shows how out of touch you are with pvp.




Dont worry about tippia, as usual she has a massive amount to say on subjects that she has no experience on.

I once lost a wt fc's claymore in this manner. You could say 'bring more', but we had enough to deal with his hapless claymore wondering into our system. Our intel was good, our response was timely and our composition was adequate.

We could stop him getting back to gate easily enough, but didnt count on him logging off to save his cheap t2 fit claymore. Later he told us that he logged in to find he had 2% structure. (he lost this ship a few days later though :) )

Doesnt bother me either way, i understand why the mechanic is there but does seem like a biased mechanic that favours ships with larger buffers. Perhaps balance could be restored with a timer that relates to ship class. I dunno.
The Apostle
Doomheim
#58 - 2011-09-30 02:19:47 UTC
Quote:
Just because that maybe CCP stance on the issue doesnt mean its right.

You're kidding right? They're wrong as in, YOU don't agree with it? Logging into and out of a battle is done by everyone that does PvP. It is normal, it is accepted, it is legal. It ain't new. The post Tippia dropped is 2007. More than 4 years ago!

Quote:
If they want to fix their game and get people active again, bring back real risk vs reward.

JF flies during wartime. RISK
Goes through gate, goes OMGWTF, logs, decorps, comes back and flies away. REWARD

Quote:
Dont let lame ass tactics like logging off to save a ship stay in game.

I giggle at highsec war dec corps who prattle on with this one.

If you chose to "PvP" in highsec then you must accept that corp-hopping/logging will remove your target.

Solution, get off your lame ass and go to 0.0 where NO RULES apply and you could have popped this guy 50 times over. Given that you carry on about the "spirit of Eve" - empire is trade/indy space, 0.0 is "bad boy pvp territory".

Go where the real fights are. Go on... Be a bad boy.....

PvP honor I say! woot...
How dare you fly your (unarmed) (uninsured) (5b) freighter and escape my (armed) (insured) (30m) battlecruiser. The nerve!!!!!

Man. I am laughing soooooo hard....

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
The Apostle
Doomheim
#59 - 2011-09-30 02:29:15 UTC
I'm still laughing.......

Somewhere deep in the Atlantic Ocean. 1944

[warning klaxon]Berraarttt beeearrratttt.

All hands, all hands....

Now hear this. Now hear this. This is your captain speaking.

We have detected an enemy u-boat fleet ahead.

All Liberty class vessels are to stop engines and make themselves visible immediately.

I repeat, stop engines and turn on your lights!

This is WAR gentlemen and you are to die with HONOR!!!!

That will be all. As you were.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#60 - 2011-09-30 03:01:18 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
logs he will pause to assess his options... ...you have to de-cloak him in that time to initiate aggression... ...this is possible... ...if you fail to de cloak him and he logs then normal log out mechanics apply...

Learn to read.


I haven't trudged through this entire thread to see if anyone has corrected you, but you may like to know that you cannot force a decloak on someone who has gate cloak.

You can be 2 meters from them when they jump in and are holding cloak... hell, you could even pass right through him... and they will not be decloaked by your close proximity. Decloaking only works for when a cloaking device is in use.

Learn to EVE.