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Warfare & Tactics

 
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A carebear's question
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Rezig Huruta
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2012-04-17 22:55:15 UTC
In response to the high sec ganking of mining ships...

What does a player who destroys a mining ship get? I mean... is there any ISK reward type of thing or just some 'loot'. I haven't partaken in PVP yet, but I'm curious.

Is there an IN GAME benefit to actually BE a pirate? (aside from simply blowing up other people's stuff).
Five Thirty
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-04-17 22:59:25 UTC
There is some loot and some salvage from what the ship was fitted with. Most gankers are doing it for tears and to upset other people. A lot of them take joy in the suffering of others.
Mr Muldour
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-04-18 01:06:43 UTC
Five Thirty wrote:
If my alliance gets a war dec, I simply stay in station and spend my time on EvE playing the market.


I hate to burst your bubble but you've just engaged in PvP, that was MY sell order you just undercut... thirty five times! You are welcome to correct your original post to say you don't engage in direct ship to ship combat but saying you don't PvP is a bald faced lie!
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#84 - 2012-04-18 01:24:07 UTC
Unless you only mine from your rookie ship (or kill only bots with your rookie ship) you are engaged in PvP somehow. It is 99% unavoidable.
Five Thirty
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#85 - 2012-04-18 02:24:23 UTC
I find it interesting that I made a post regarding non-consensual pvp (ganking) and people try to derail the thread into a discussion about how the market is pvp, how mining is pvp, etc etc etc.
Valheru Adun
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-04-18 09:42:06 UTC
Five Thirty wrote:
I find it interesting that I made a post regarding non-consensual pvp (ganking) and people try to derail the thread into a discussion about how the market is pvp, how mining is pvp, etc etc etc.



That's because they haven't done any proper PvP. They want to feel good about themselves. It's really silly. :)
evil art
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2012-04-18 10:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: evil art
Five Thirty wrote:
The truth of the matter is that you cannot FORCE someone to PvP.

I personally don't PvP. I absolutely detest PvP, and have avoided it in every game I've ever played. If my alliance gets a war dec, I simply stay in station and spend my time on EvE playing the market. If the war dec lasts too long, I will simply stop playing, logging on only to update skill queues.

I don't shoot ninjas who invade my mission space. Instead, I abandon all wrecks immediately. If there is a mission completion item, I will dock up and complete the mission later. Losing the time bonus doesn't bother me at all versus accidentally gaining agro from the invader. I don't want to fight you, and I will do everything in my power to make that abundantly clear.

I do not venture into lowsec space. I know that I am a huge target and that there are players all over that area of space looking to take me down at their first opportunity.


My question is:

Why does this bother some of you?

I enjoy the PvE aspect of the game, I really do. How does this affect the PvP players in any way? Are you trying to lower the subscriber base of EvE by driving out the people who don't see things the same way you do? I know that I am not alone in my playstyle, in fact most of my alliance members are mission runners or industrialists.

Can the blood hungry PvPers not see that blowing away industrialists is equivalent to shooting yourself in the foot? Who makes your ships that you so happily blow into space dust? Who mines the minerals? Who risks their freighter every time they jump into Jita?

Carebears do.

So, does it really make sense to push them out of the game in hopes that spaceships will start growing on trees?

Extra credit bonus question:

Are there not enough people actively looking for PvP that instead PvP players must turn to harassing PvE players?




So what you are saying you dont want to defend "your space", how are you then gona keep it? let others Do it for you? in my view thats leeching on others, Or are you talking about low sec pvp with no sov for example? there are industri corp´s out there that contribute the wareffort also. but in eve you earn your space. so im not sure what you will do there. Good Luck
Stalking Mantis
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-04-18 13:12:16 UTC
1-Concord is not meant to protect you ever. Concord is meant to punish. Concord is a consequence to an action. Everything you do in this game has consequences.

2-This is EVE. It is Dark it Is Scary. It is dangerous. Adapt.

3-By default if you are space you are either hunter or prey. Sometimes the roles are turned around very fast. Are you a lion or a gazelle?

4-I will admit that chasing around highsec mission runners is pretty much the bottom of the barrel as far as PvP abilitiy. That is why I am in Faction Warfare as I surround myself by willing targets that die as a consequence of being on the opposing side. (notice the recurring theme of action and consequence).

5-Everything in this game is an action and a consequence of previous actions/decisions you made. As life is. Unlike other games there is no reset or reload option. It is meant to be that way.

6-The gankers you speak of in highsec cannot compete with a real pvp'er. If they could they would. That is why they chase around defensless players.

6-Look up Agony Unleashed (google the name). Trust me nothing compares to the PvP shakes. If you do try it out and decide you like PvP do yourself a favor....Dont turn into a highsec ganking nub.

Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare -->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#89 - 2012-04-18 13:22:23 UTC
I think you need to rethink your idea of what is and is not PVP.

http://stinkinguplocal.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/save-me-from-non-consentual-pvp/

Quote:
[Eve] is PVP. Do you run incursions? Another fleet can contest a site and reap all the rewards when your fleet did almost half the work. Are you an explorer? Even in highsec someone can come along, race you to the acceleration gate in a DED 4/10 site, and be the one who gets the expensive loot even though you did 90% of the shooting. Even miners can engage in a small amount of PVP against other miners: it’s possible to mine asteroids out from under other miners, wasting their cycles and reducing their yield significantly.

...

Now, I could say that I have no interest in that PVP. I just want to buy a few ships, I might say, and not have to fly 10 jumps to get what I need at a decent price. It’s non-consentual PVP and I want no part in it. CCP should put all the items in one big pool, sell them at fixed prices, and have them instantly delivered to wherever you are when you buy them. That way I can play the game how I want to play it. Hyperbole? Certainly. But sometimes hyperbole is necessary to make a point.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Five Thirty
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#90 - 2012-04-18 15:19:14 UTC
I am only going to say this one more time.

This thread is about:

- Suicide ganking
- Invading missions to bait mission runners into agressing


This thread is NOT about:

- War
- Lowsec roams
- Nullsec territory battles
- Market PvP
- Mining PvP
- Contesting incursion sites
- Ninjaing complexes


Seriously, it kinda makes me wonder about the people who either cannot or will not understand what this thread is about, despite several attempts by me to keep it on track.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#91 - 2012-04-18 16:14:17 UTC
In your OP you say that this thread is about forcing PVP on others.

Which, in a open world sandbox, is an oxymoron, there is no "opt-out of PVP" anywhere on Tranquility.

Suicide ganking and all that hisec faggotry is crap, tho. Luckily you can avoid them 100% by moving out of hisec, so it's your choice really.

.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#92 - 2012-04-18 16:14:23 UTC
Valheru Adun wrote:
I've been thinking about this lately. In EvE I recently became a miner. At this point I can spare time for that, I cannot commit to something more - like null sec. However I am a very competitive player, even if I am not competing in any kind of PvP in EvE, at this point. So it really baffles me when someone comes to me and wants to kill my Retriever, that could last a few shots tops. How is that logical? And what does that say for the player doing it? To me, as someone who has been PvP-ing and playing on a very high level in quite a few online games, this is not PvP. This is what happens when sad people are trying to make other people sad.


PvP is a result not a cause. It doesn't matter WHY one player kills another, it is the act of killing other players that is PvP. Whether someone is a threat, or an ally is irrelevant to the term PvP. As someone who has been PvPing in other games, you haven't really been PvPing if you don't intrinsically understand this.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#93 - 2012-04-18 16:24:09 UTC
Five Thirty wrote:
I am only going to say this one more time.

This thread is about:

- Suicide ganking
- Invading missions to bait mission runners into agressing


This thread is NOT about:

- War
- Lowsec roams
- Nullsec territory battles
- Market PvP
- Mining PvP
- Contesting incursion sites
- Ninjaing complexes


Seriously, it kinda makes me wonder about the people who either cannot or will not understand what this thread is about, despite several attempts by me to keep it on track.


I suggest you re-read your OP. The OP is what this thread is about. You start off stating a falacy as a fact, "The truth of the matter is that you cannot FORCE someone to PvP." Then go on and say a lie. "I personally don't PvP. I absolutely detest PvP, and have avoided it in every game I've ever played."

People are replying to your OP, the words you said, not whatever you intend the thread to be about. This thread is therefore about correcting your fallacies and lies.


My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Valheru Adun
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-04-18 16:48:34 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Valheru Adun wrote:
I've been thinking about this lately. In EvE I recently became a miner. At this point I can spare time for that, I cannot commit to something more - like null sec. However I am a very competitive player, even if I am not competing in any kind of PvP in EvE, at this point. So it really baffles me when someone comes to me and wants to kill my Retriever, that could last a few shots tops. How is that logical? And what does that say for the player doing it? To me, as someone who has been PvP-ing and playing on a very high level in quite a few online games, this is not PvP. This is what happens when sad people are trying to make other people sad.


PvP is a result not a cause. It doesn't matter WHY one player kills another, it is the act of killing other players that is PvP. Whether someone is a threat, or an ally is irrelevant to the term PvP. As someone who has been PvPing in other games, you haven't really been PvPing if you don't intrinsically understand this.


This is incorrect. PvP is not the result of Griefing. Griefing has no result. Griefing is griefing.

I pose no threat, 0 threat. I cannot defend myself. Therefor I am not VERSUS the one who's attacking me. I'm just receiving. Even if I'm fitted to somehow survive until Concord arrives, I'm still just receiving. If you call this PvP, then you must hold no respect for yourself as a PvP player.

Also a lot of players seem to mistake interaction between players for PvP. Trading is not PvP, supplying minerals, building ships is not PvP. It's player interaction. PvP - Player versus Player - is the result of 1(or more) player engaging in battle 1(or more) player. That is PvP. Eve is the only MMO community, that claims that every interaction between players is PvP. It is not, no matter how hard you wish it to be so. It is not. Try to comprehend what I'm saying. Have some self respect.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#95 - 2012-04-18 17:06:11 UTC
Yes, we comprehend what you are saying, but you are still wrong.

Player vs Player happens, when your actions in game gain you an advantage over the other player(s). Cornering a market is example of such an action, your operation robbed the income from a dozen of other traders. A small victory for you, player vs player.

When you find a Guristas Scout Outpost in hisec, and another player finds the same site, you race to pop the radar, player vs player.

When you fire your weapons on another ship, it's called combat. The player VERSUS player thing took place before that. His effort to find and lock your weak, unprotected ship, versus your effort to do **** all about to prevent that from happening.

.
Valheru Adun
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#96 - 2012-04-18 17:19:20 UTC
Roime wrote:
Yes, we comprehend what you are saying, but you are still wrong.

Player vs Player happens, when your actions in game gain you an advantage over the other player(s). Cornering a market is example of such an action, your operation robbed the income from a dozen of other traders. A small victory for you, player vs player.

When you find a Guristas Scout Outpost in hisec, and another player finds the same site, you race to pop the radar, player vs player.

When you fire your weapons on another ship, it's called combat. The player VERSUS player thing took place before that. His effort to find and lock your weak, unprotected ship, versus your effort to do **** all about to prevent that from happening.


This logic can be applied to almost all the MMO's out there and it would work if people believe in it. But no, player versus player is exactly that - battle between players. Nothing more, nothing less. I will repeat this again, this is the only community that uses all the "everything is PvP" bullcrap to justify their actions. Your actions don't need justification, my inaction doesn't need explaining. I can do whatever I want and you can do whatever you want, but there should always be consequences. Miners face the consequences every time they lose a ship, while the griefer faces no consequences and there's no way he will ever face any with the current game mechanics. It's a pity really. The current mechanics actually encourage griefing and discourage PvP. The griefers aren't looking for battle when they warp to an asteroid belt, they are looking for an easy kill.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#97 - 2012-04-18 17:29:41 UTC
The ganker faces consequences every time, he loses his ship, gets a security status hit and you receive kill rights. Whether or not you use your legal right is up to you.

By the way, I've been lately mining Arkonor, Bistot, Cronkite and Dark Ochre until my little bear paws bleed. I don't belong to a sov-holding alliance, and I don't need CONCORD to protect me, I live in lawless space. All I need for my security is my planning, and my handful of trusty corpmates.

This is a sandbox, with total freedom to be or not to be a victim.


.
Valheru Adun
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#98 - 2012-04-18 18:00:52 UTC
Roime wrote:
The ganker faces consequences every time, he loses his ship, gets a security status hit and you receive kill rights. Whether or not you use your legal right is up to you.

By the way, I've been lately mining Arkonor, Bistot, Cronkite and Dark Ochre until my little bear paws bleed. I don't belong to a sov-holding alliance, and I don't need CONCORD to protect me, I live in lawless space. All I need for my security is my planning, and my handful of trusty corpmates.

This is a sandbox, with total freedom to be or not to be a victim.




You still don't get it. This might be a sandbox, but it's not anarchy. There is High sec, Low sec and Null sec. They are here for a reason. High sec space should be a relatively safe space. Right now it's not. Especially for industrialists. We have a lot on the line here. We must fit, we must anticipate, we must have corpmates for protection, alts etc. All that effort just to protect ourselves from some random douche bag with a low cost frigate.

See for a game that's supposed to offer a lot of freedom, there's not much choice for us industrialists. We either invest more and more, and prepare etc, or we're sitting ducks. The griefer on the other hand risks a low cost frigate and doesn't care about standing anyway. Things are a little bit uneven here.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#99 - 2012-04-18 18:21:26 UTC
Hisec is a relatively safe place. You can store your assets and dock in stations that can't be blown up, CONCORD will blow up those who break the law, navies will shoot enemies of the state and generally you can travel safely without being attacked.

Quote:
We must fit, we must anticipate, we must have corpmates for protection, alts etc. All that effort just to protect ourselves from some random douche bag with a low cost frigate.


This is exactly the same to everybody. All that effort to succeed.

Why do you think that being an "industrialist" in hisec is not your choice? Why do you think that your choice would somehow liberate you from the same requirements we all share- to anticipate, to have corpmates and alts?





.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#100 - 2012-04-18 18:47:20 UTC
And btw what defines an "industrialist"?

I've built a stockpile of hundreds of cruisers and battlecruisers in anticipation of Inferno, more is in the cooker all the time. From BPOs I've researched (in lowsec before I figured I could do it in our POS, btw, the queues are shorter there), now even mining minerals and recycling loot as the supply is currently poor and prices high. I harvest gas. I've collected a big pile of salvage, decryptors and Incognito tool thingies for rig manufacturing and invention later.

I enjoy all these things in addition to blowing up spaceships, because I can. It's a sandbox.



.