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Titan changes - update

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CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#981 - 2012-04-18 14:31:49 UTC
Cid Tazer wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
Hi Greyscale!

After some testing we've found that dictors are still hilariously vulnerable to being picked off, especially since the tracking and target painter situations are unchanged. Current supercap fleet setups can still shake off their tacklers without any change to fitting, and without any support ships required.

With this in mind, (and the fact it only applies to titans now) the formula should be changed to either:
a) Use unmodified sig (with no MWD or TP effects), or
b) Use a cubed formula: sig_radius^3/new_attribute^3 to scale down damage more sharply.

May I direct you to this very exciting spreadsheet that shows these effects:

>>>>>>>>>> http://i.imgur.com/B3EOC.png <<<<<<<<<<<

edit: FYI a typical fleet dictor has 3-5k EHP, dropping below 3k if it fits no buffer tank.


Where does this fall on the "game breaking" to "inconvenient" scale? Am I correct in assuming that this just gives a strong incentive to supers with hictors rather than dictors?


While posing a question to answer a question is usually bad form, is restricting the role of tackling supers to heavy dictors something that you are ok with? Are you ok with a titan being able to hit and easily pop destroyer class hulls? Does a dictor still have an appropriate role after this?


- For the time being, yes, this isn't a long-term equilibrium.
- Not hugely, but for the time being yes, see previous question.
- Yes, there in fact are still fights that don't involve multiple titans.
Cid Tazer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#982 - 2012-04-18 14:35:46 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


- For the time being, yes, this isn't a long-term equilibrium.
- Not hugely, but for the time being yes, see previous question.
- Yes, there in fact are still fights that don't involve multiple titans.


A lot of us are going to be watching closely to see how long "the time being" ends up being. While the latest push for iterations has been wonderful, there were over 2 years where things were left broken which left us in the current equilibrium. There is some goodwill for "trust us we will fix it soon(tm)" but actions speak louder than words.
Corteztk
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#983 - 2012-04-18 14:37:32 UTC
Ummm what fights don't involve multiple titans? Occasionally someone is ganked by being probed or bumped out of a pos in a titan but truthfully it's EXTREMELY rare for a titan to choose to engage without 20 other titans backing it up. I do have to disagree with you there greyscale.

Is there no way you can come up with some sort of bonus to dictors to make them at least a little more survivable to titans? Far to many titans get away because they blap every dictor available on market within ten systems and then jump out.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#984 - 2012-04-18 14:51:24 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Where does this fall on the "game breaking" to "inconvenient" scale? Am I correct in assuming that this just gives a strong incentive to supers with hictors rather than dictors?

It's game breaking. The problem is titans can easily blap their tackles and jump out. Hictors are still terrible for tackling supercaps, they've never been particularly good at that role and there's a reason people use regular dictors instead. Allowing titans to kill their tacklers prevents titanfleets from dying.
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#985 - 2012-04-18 14:54:31 UTC  |  Edited by: CynoNet Two
CCP Greyscale wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
Hi Greyscale!

After some testing we've found that dictors are still hilariously vulnerable to being picked off, especially since the tracking and target painter situations are unchanged. Current supercap fleet setups can still shake off their tacklers without any change to fitting, and without any support ships required.

With this in mind, (and the fact it only applies to titans now) the formula should be changed to either:
a) Use unmodified sig (with no MWD or TP effects), or
b) Use a cubed formula: sig_radius^3/new_attribute^3 to scale down damage more sharply.

May I direct you to this very exciting spreadsheet that shows these effects:

>>>>>>>>>> http://i.imgur.com/B3EOC.png <<<<<<<<<<<

edit: FYI a typical fleet dictor has 3-5k EHP, dropping below 3k if it fits no buffer tank.


Where does this fall on the "game breaking" to "inconvenient" scale? Am I correct in assuming that this just gives a strong incentive to supers with hictors rather than dictors?


Dictors are most logical counter to titans as-is. They favour a hit+run style of fighting using their small size to survive, and are easily dealt with by support fleets.
HICs are a relic from the AoE doomsday days, and need fairly significant numbers to be survivable against supercaps. Without sufficient pilots around they will find themselves permanantly on zero cap by multiple officer neuts and unable to tackle, or to tank well. One HIC will rarely make the difference against typical supercap fleets, and certainly won't hold them down long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

So yeah it's hugely game-breaking because dictors are required for the initial tackle to initiate a fight (catching titans sieging a tower without support). HICs are needed to prolong that tackle during a larger engagement. Both should have a degree of survivability when deployed against unsupported supercaps - especially the dictor, without which many fights would not begin in the first place.
The Groundskeeper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#986 - 2012-04-18 14:56:19 UTC
Deciding that the key supercap tackler platform down through the years (since Shrike himself, right back when tackling ttans became possible) should no longer work in the overwhelming majority of realistic supercap combat situations is a HUGE decision to make, even if it is just "temporarily" (and you can probably sense that scepticism is rife).
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#987 - 2012-04-18 14:58:37 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
Without sufficient pilots around they will find themselves permanantly on zero cap by multiple officer neuts and unable to tackle, or to tank well.


Yeah, even with cap-injected fits, hictors are hilariously short on cap. They need to perma run prop mods, run their point/bubble, run their active tank, and are the #1 target for neuts on field. Just not enough cap to go around. They're just not good at their job in big fleet engagements (compared to dics). CCP, please do not expect people to rely on hics for tackle in their current state.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#988 - 2012-04-18 14:59:28 UTC
This isn't a theoretical concern: it's fairly common for a titan or groups of titans to be tackled and blap all of the dictors while the fleet is on its way to kill it and escape.
Cid Tazer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#989 - 2012-04-18 15:06:21 UTC
pmchem wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
Without sufficient pilots around they will find themselves permanantly on zero cap by multiple officer neuts and unable to tackle, or to tank well.


Yeah, even with cap-injected fits, hictors are hilariously short on cap. They need to perma run prop mods, run their point/bubble, run their active tank, and are the #1 target for neuts on field. Just not enough cap to go around. They're just not good at their job in big fleet engagements (compared to dics). CCP, please do not expect people to rely on hics for tackle in their current state.


Wouldn't this be an issue that CCP Ytterbium/CCP Tallest needs to be aware of when doing ship line balancing?
Magnifikus Erzverwirrer
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#990 - 2012-04-18 15:15:28 UTC
Will you fix the bridge bug for our new mobile jumpbridges? (or next year slackers?)

i think i will just stop subscription until you fix a gamebreaking bug that exists 2 years now?

**** you ccp
BensBig
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#991 - 2012-04-18 15:20:18 UTC
You were expecting a real fix for this issue from CCP Greyscale??? ....................... I guess it could happen but generally he i the "Idea" guy , bandaid fix guy, we are looking into it guy and If it absolutely has to be halfway and no further guy.
When you singlehandedly create more drama in Eve than all others and even the goontards and their motarded offspring dislike you, You are a superstar ;) Alright Im off to practice my drone NOloot all button pressing just in case I get a sentient spawn and some of those yummy drone parts.
Magnifikus Erzverwirrer
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#992 - 2012-04-18 15:32:28 UTC
BensBig wrote:
You were expecting a real fix for this issue from CCP Greyscale??? ....................... I guess it could happen but generally he i the "Idea" guy , bandaid fix guy, we are looking into it guy and If it absolutely has to be halfway and no further guy.
When you singlehandedly create more drama in Eve than all others and even the goontards and their motarded offspring dislike you, You are a superstar ;) Alright Im off to practice my drone NOloot all button pressing just in case I get a sentient spawn and some of those yummy drone parts.


to be realistic? no but i expect that ccp is taking action on this person ;)
Vheroki
Tranquility Tavern
Pandemic Horde
#993 - 2012-04-18 15:37:19 UTC
Magnifikus Erzverwirrer wrote:
Will you fix the bridge bug for our new mobile jumpbridges? (or next year slackers?)

i think i will just stop subscription until you fix a gamebreaking bug that exists 2 years now?

**** you ccp


We need to start bitching like goons posting 6 times 1 line in 6 different posts like, that smart ass Andski, per page so we get noticed. This seems to work.
Magnifikus Erzverwirrer
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#994 - 2012-04-18 15:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Magnifikus Erzverwirrer
Vheroki wrote:
Magnifikus Erzverwirrer wrote:
Will you fix the bridge bug for our new mobile jumpbridges? (or next year slackers?)

i think i will just stop subscription until you fix a gamebreaking bug that exists 2 years now?

**** you ccp


We need to start bitching like goons posting 6 times 1 line in 6 different posts like, that smart ass Andski, per page so we get noticed. This seems to work.


nope we dont have greyscale, ccp still wants power to the masses stated year ago, hf with 1600 man fleets that bring systems down to 10% tidi themself
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#995 - 2012-04-18 15:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: CynoNet Two
Cid Tazer wrote:
pmchem wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
Without sufficient pilots around they will find themselves permanantly on zero cap by multiple officer neuts and unable to tackle, or to tank well.


Yeah, even with cap-injected fits, hictors are hilariously short on cap. They need to perma run prop mods, run their point/bubble, run their active tank, and are the #1 target for neuts on field. Just not enough cap to go around. They're just not good at their job in big fleet engagements (compared to dics). CCP, please do not expect people to rely on hics for tackle in their current state.


Wouldn't this be an issue that CCP Ytterbium/CCP Tallest needs to be aware of when doing ship line balancing?


Perhaps, but personally I think it's more elegant to let regular dictors serve as the primary supercap nemesis and balance HICs for tackling subcap fleets as their primary role. This avoids any nastiness where buffing HICs vs supercaps makes them overpowered in sub-cap scenarios.

With a cubed formula or unmodified sig the first half of this will have been achieved.

Vheroki wrote:

We need to start bitching like goons posting 6 times 1 line in 6 different posts like, that smart ass Andski, per page so we get noticed. This seems to work.

This may be just a wild stab in the dark, but maybe it's because we're posting feedback to proposed changes backed up by valid math and practical obeservations.
You're whining about not getting bugs fixed in a balancing thread, which is rather like complaining that your supermarket won't fix your car.
Magnifikus Erzverwirrer
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#996 - 2012-04-18 15:42:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Magnifikus Erzverwirrer
CynoNet Two wrote:
Cid Tazer wrote:
pmchem wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
Without sufficient pilots around they will find themselves permanantly on zero cap by multiple officer neuts and unable to tackle, or to tank well.


Yeah, even with cap-injected fits, hictors are hilariously short on cap. They need to perma run prop mods, run their point/bubble, run their active tank, and are the #1 target for neuts on field. Just not enough cap to go around. They're just not good at their job in big fleet engagements (compared to dics). CCP, please do not expect people to rely on hics for tackle in their current state.


Wouldn't this be an issue that CCP Ytterbium/CCP Tallest needs to be aware of when doing ship line balancing?


Perhaps, but personally I think it's more elegant to let regular dictors serve as the primary supercap nemesis and balance HICs for tackling subcap fleets as their primary role. This avoids any nastiness where buffing HICs vs supercaps makes them overpowered in sub-cap scenarios.

With a cubed formula or unmodified sig the first half of this will have been achieved.


where is the problem neither supercarriers nor titans can deal damage to dics/hics anymore?!?

and battleships can now easliy r4pe t1ts/moms without support

+with tidi you can reship tacklers in no time
Cid Tazer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#997 - 2012-04-18 15:46:38 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
Cid Tazer wrote:
pmchem wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
Without sufficient pilots around they will find themselves permanantly on zero cap by multiple officer neuts and unable to tackle, or to tank well.


Yeah, even with cap-injected fits, hictors are hilariously short on cap. They need to perma run prop mods, run their point/bubble, run their active tank, and are the #1 target for neuts on field. Just not enough cap to go around. They're just not good at their job in big fleet engagements (compared to dics). CCP, please do not expect people to rely on hics for tackle in their current state.


Wouldn't this be an issue that CCP Ytterbium/CCP Tallest needs to be aware of when doing ship line balancing?


Perhaps, but personally I think it's more elegant to let regular dictors serve as the primary supercap nemesis and balance HICs for tackling subcap fleets as their primary role. This avoids any nastiness where buffing HICs vs supercaps makes them overpowered in sub-cap scenarios.

With a cubed formula or unmodified sig the first half of this will have been achieved.


I think I understand what you view the roles as hictor dealing with subcaps and dictor dealing with caps+/mobile bubbler. Unfortunately I don't think CCP Greyscale agrees with you. My reading of CCPs view is dictor for more mobile fleets and hictor for heavy hitting/more stationary fleets. Unfortunately I think due to cap/active tank issues since the bubble disabling remote repping, the hictor doesn't perform the role of heavy bubbler as effectively as a dictor does with its speed tank.
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#998 - 2012-04-18 15:54:20 UTC
Cid Tazer wrote:
I think I understand what you view the roles as hictor dealing with subcaps and dictor dealing with caps+/mobile bubbler. Unfortunately I don't think CCP Greyscale agrees with you. My reading of CCPs view is dictor for more mobile fleets and hictor for heavy hitting/more stationary fleets. Unfortunately I think due to cap/active tank issues since the bubble disabling remote repping, the hictor doesn't perform the role of heavy bubbler as effectively as a dictor does with its speed tank.

Yeah we need to correct this misconception. HICs were heavy bubblers back in the days of AOE doomsdays (hell, AOE DD's are the whole reason HICs were introduced). Unfortunately things were never rebalanced for Dominion-era supercaps and now we have titans blapping everything. And as we rebalance it makes sense to review ship roles at the same time :)
Magnifikus Erzverwirrer
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#999 - 2012-04-18 16:04:28 UTC
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#1000 - 2012-04-18 16:18:22 UTC  |  Edited by: steave435
CynoNet Two wrote:
Hi Greyscale

After some testing we've found that dictors are still hilariously vulnerable to being picked off, especially since the tracking and target painter situations are unchanged. Current supercap fleet setups can still shake off their tacklers without any change to fitting, and without any support ships required

With this in mind, (and the fact it only applies to titans now) the formula should be changed to either
a) Use unmodified sig (with no MWD or TP effects), o
b) Use a cubed formula: sig_radius^3/new_attribute^3 to scale down damage more sharply

May I direct you to this very exciting spreadsheet that shows these effects

>>>>>>>>>> http://i.imgur.com/B3EOC.png <<<<<<<<<<

edit: FYI a typical fleet dictor has 3-5k EHP, dropping below 3k if it fits no buffer tank.

Except caps won't even lock the dictor in time before it cloaks up/warps out again, and even if they do, they won't track, just like dreads doesn't track dictors now. Even if they do somehow lock and manage to track, you're still using a strawman here since even the largest dictor only has a 70.8m sig after the Loki bonus is applied, even with 2 MSEs and 2 CDFEs fitted while you use 82 as your base.

If you want to be able to stay on the field rather then get a warpin, warp to it, bubble and get out, there are dual prop dictor fits for all 4 dictors suitable for that. They can approach with the MWD for a cycle or so and then either switch to AB or tap the cloak on and off to cancel current locking attempts. All of these numbers are without implants and without any boosters, such as x-instinct and cheap 1-3% hardwirings that can further improve these stats. Additionally, they don't include stats with Gistii B-type or Coreli C-type MWDs (or any other faction mods), none of which cost that much, and should be acceptable since the whole premise of this nerf is that cost isn't a balancing factor.
Eris: 16.3k EHP, 55.8m sig base, or 335 with MWD. Goes to 132 or 627 with 3 max skilled domination painters.
Heretic: 15k EHP, 53.8m sig base, or 323 with MWD. Goes to 128 and 605 with TPs.
Flycatcher: 19.6k EHP, 70.8 sig base, or 422 with MWD. Goes to 162 and 762 with TPs.
Sabre: 17.6k EHP, 63.2 sig base, or 372 with MWD. Goes to 139 and 653 with TPs.

Spreadsheet with damage that will ACTUALLY be applied: http://tinypic.com/r/5oghaf/5
I also have additional screenshots simulating the tracking that I'll upload a little bit later, but the Tl;Dr is that the dictor pretty much has to be 90k+ away and MWDing towards the titan with an approach angle of less then 5 degrees to get hit at all.