These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Market Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

Does Eve need more Taxes?

Author
Matrix Operator
#1 - 2012-04-17 14:24:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Matrix Operator
Are taxes the sleeping giant when it comes to fixing the isk faucets?

More taxes are coming: Skip to 27:00 for more details.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MZD6-vGQms&feature=plcp&context=C4f10f15VDvjVQa1PpcFOEzQi5G2x0m0l32YE8I8CIMb3LQJfYC8w%3D

Question is... what's the best way the new taxes should be implemented? I for one would be in favor of

1. An increase in NPC corp taxes to 15% (from 11%)
2. A sales tax increase on all hi sec NPC stations to 8%.
3. A sales tax increase on all low sec NPC stations to 3%
4. A sales tax increase on all null sec NPC stations to 2%
3. Sales taxes at Alliance Outpost should be set by the alliance and goes into alliance/corp funds to motivate players to get out of highsec.

Never thought I'ld be proposing more taxess...Shocked. But its probably the easiest way to fix the sink/faucet imbalance in the game.
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-04-17 15:29:35 UTC
Higher sales taxes would just result in less volume moving and increased prices. The reduced volume would make the increased taxes a moot issue.

We just need fewer isk faucets. More incentives to have player based mission type things, which causes isk to change hands but does not create it.

Reduce mission pay outs, but give me the option to have someone grind rep for me, or something. Just a random idea, probably not good, but an example.
Matrix Operator
#3 - 2012-04-17 15:52:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Matrix Operator
Barakach wrote:
Higher sales taxes would just result in less volume moving and increased prices. The reduced volume would make the increased taxes a moot issue.


Not true in many instances. Much of the games items have inelastic demand.
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-04-17 16:15:43 UTC
Matrix Operator wrote:
Barakach wrote:
Higher sales taxes would just result in less volume moving and increased prices. The reduced volume would make the increased taxes a moot issue.


Not true in many instances. A much of the games items have inelastic demand.


Good point.

I wonder if more people would just run more incursions/etc, which would effectively just cause inflation. Higher prices to compensate for the increased taxes. I think the issue is a global tax increase on everything would just cause everything to become more expensive, which is inflation.

We need more player paid services and more sinks.

btw, I actually like responses like Matrix Operator. Like someone with food on their teeth, I appreciate being told when something is wrong, followed by some sort of reason/etc. eg "inelastic demand"
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#5 - 2012-04-17 16:49:28 UTC
I think taxing is a boring game mechanic. It would be more interesting to place it in other things. One could be region to region tolls. Also a really usefull one would be per m3 pricing on hangar usage, both individuals and office spaces. Flat taxes wont create game content, things like those and maybe docking fees would..

Also I think when we get more services on players hands there will be really interesting options to create isk sinks.

One could be npc shares trade, while creating that bringing player corp shares trading on scc or contract markets.

Thus players payments to npc corp services could be a sort of player generated lottery, where dividends was paid from part of the profits..

Just some ideas..

Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#6 - 2012-04-17 17:01:21 UTC
In a word, God yes.

Ok, 2 words.
Driftfire
Northern Star Enterprises
#7 - 2012-04-17 20:50:32 UTC
Any new taxes should not unduely effect new players.

Any tax must be activity based not passive based ( i.e. taxes must not be incurred whilst out of game )

Higher transactions taxes would hurt ( me a lot ), but would get rid of a lot of isk in game.

Another idea would be for faction ( and maybe officer ) drops to be encrypted BPCs rather than items. These items may de-coded at NPC station for a fee to made useable. [ hmmm this could be extend to all drops in an extreme case ].


A non tax way to get ISK out would be for clothing to be NPC sold rather than Aurium.


Maybe an ISK tax on refining rather than minerals tax.

Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#8 - 2012-04-17 21:21:06 UTC
Instead of sinking ISK in tax, a punishment for playing a video game, make ISK sinks relative to game play, key word, PLAY.

Speed up a build? Sure, that will cost you -this much- ISK.
I want my blue print copies now? No probs, that will cost you.

There is more to sinking ISK than just adding to the time it takes to get something done in a video game. Especially one that sucks as much time out of us as EVE.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#9 - 2012-04-17 21:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Matrix Operator wrote:
Are taxes the sleeping giant when it comes to fixing the isk faucets?

More taxes are coming: Skip to 27:00 for more details.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MZD6-vGQms&feature=plcp&context=C4f10f15VDvjVQa1PpcFOEzQi5G2x0m0l32YE8I8CIMb3LQJfYC8w%3D

Question is... what's the best way the new taxes should be implemented? I for one would be in favor of

1. An increase in NPC corp taxes to 15% (from 11%)
2. A sales tax increase on all hi sec NPC stations to 10%.
3. A sales tax increase on all low sec NPC stations to 5%
4. A sales tax increase on all null sec NPC stations to 2%
3. Sales taxes at Alliance Outpost should be set by the alliance and goes into alliance/corp funds to motivate players to get out of highsec.

Never thought I'ld be proposing more taxess...Shocked. But its probably the easiest way to fix the sink/faucet imbalance in the game.


NPC tax doesn't affect mining & with the new WarDeck system I won't be surprised to see a few miners move into more NPC corps & keep there bounty alts in a 1 man corp
It'll be interesting to see how peeps start avoidingtaxes when it becomes too overbearing. Maybe anincrease in the use of contracts?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Matrix Operator
#10 - 2012-04-17 21:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Matrix Operator
DarthNefarius wrote:
NPC tax doesn't affect mining & with the new WarDeck system I won't be surprised to see a few miners move into more NPC corps & keep there bounty alts in a 1 man corp
It'll be interesting to see how peeps start avoidingtaxes when it becomes too overbearing. Maybe anincrease in the use of contracts?


Mining is not an isk faucet. Actually NPC corps have the highest taxes already. Contracts can be easily taxed as well.
Matrix Operator
#11 - 2012-04-17 21:58:22 UTC
Driftfire wrote:
Another idea would be for faction ( and maybe officer ) drops to be encrypted BPCs rather than items. These items may de-coded at NPC station for a fee to made useable. [ hmmm this could be extend to all drops in an extreme case ].


I don't know. Seems overly complex. Sales and profit taxes are pretty simple, straightforward, more predictable, and easier for CCP to regulate as needed.
Adunh Slavy
#12 - 2012-04-17 21:59:26 UTC
Instead of more taxes, maybe more industries.

If productivity can keep pace with ISK, then the overall pricing should stay more or less the same. The more things there are to do, that can be profitable, that are not ISK generating activities, the less ISK generating there will be.

Ideas, some of them ancient and certainly not mine:

POS slot rental
Clone making
Implant making
New unpopulated space with no rats and totally new materials (WH would have done this almost exactly, except for blue loot, which made sense at the time, now with PI done on planets, blue loot seems less a necessity.)
High Sec POCO
Mini POS/Personal POS/Homesteads (winter 2012?)
Stocks/Bonds
WiS related things
Dust related things

More stuff to do, more stuff to spend ISK upon, more consumption - Spread player time out over a more broad economic landscape. Spread the ISK out upon a more broad economic landscape.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Matrix Operator
#13 - 2012-04-17 22:08:05 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Instead of more taxes, maybe more industries.

If productivity can keep pace with ISK, then the overall pricing should stay more or less the same. The more things there are to do, that can be profitable, that are not ISK generating activities, the less ISK generating there will be.

Ideas, some of them ancient and certainly not mine:

POS slot rental
Clone making
Implant making
New unpopulated space with no rats and totally new materials (WH would have done this almost exactly, except for blue loot, which made sense at the time, now with PI done on planets, blue loot seems less a necessity.)
High Sec POCO
Mini POS/Personal POS/Homesteads (winter 2012?)
Stocks/Bonds
WiS related things
Dust related things

More stuff to do, more stuff to spend ISK upon, more consumption - Spread player time out over a more broad economic landscape. Spread the ISK out upon a more broad economic landscape.


Those really just seem like ways of diversifying wealth and investments. Not an isk sink. All the isk bounties and NPC payouts input into the game will still be stacking up. Just changing hands a few more times. The only way to remove isk from the game is to either pay an NPC, frozen in cancelled accounts, or deleted punatively by the gamemasters.

Kawaai
Lancret Gorge
#14 - 2012-04-17 23:23:21 UTC
Taxes are dull, they are IRL they are ingame. If you figure increasing the taxes will fix the economy, think again.
Those measures really only work when the money is genuinely going somewhere. Since we have one currency, one economy and also no government there is little use to implementing higher taxes but for only the sake of discouraging transactions.

I see little problem in the economy as it is going now, prices go up but wallets grow in size also. At some point, something will happen. What? Well there's the chance that the market will collapse and people will try to rid off items in mass to at least get a tiny bit of ISK out of em still.

On a small scale this happens all the time when people fix a specific market or when they drop a large amount in for a far lower price to just rid their stock.

I hardly see why anyone would worry, the most likely thing to happen when such a thing would occur (a crash) is that some people are going to lose lots of iSK invested. Well.. Is that not a risk you assume when you take upon for example trading?
When you start mining a specific ore you will most likely know from research this is the best choice for you if you plan to sell it directly after refining or as the ore itself or use it for your own production lines.
Chances are that once you have the ore prices have change and you could have saved lots of time by just buying the stuff in the first place. It happens.

If CCP would come in and change things by implementing taxes that go nowhere what is the point really? I personally would not see why it concerns them. In fact I can imagine some people licking their fingers at the economical display this 'experiment' might end up in.

If you care so much about your reserves you should reconsider the risks you take. When things go crazy you should be happy, because it makes things interesting again. I tell you, hills and mountains are far more interesting compared to planes.

Ever heard of those guys who made Trillions when something big went down? It could be you next time, just maybe if you play it well.


TL;RD: No.
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance
#15 - 2012-04-17 23:43:01 UTC
More sales and broker taxes are a really bad idea. All it will do is make small single step outfits totally unprofitable. Instead, you will have to take something all the way from gathering inputs to final product since every step along the way adds cost. When taxes are low the cumulative additional cost isn't so terrible for a 5 step process, but if taxes were say 10% at each step it would be a 46% increase in cost from inputs to final product. It is impossible to compete when your costs are so out of line from big outfits who don't pay those costs.
Adunh Slavy
#16 - 2012-04-18 02:11:05 UTC
Matrix Operator wrote:

Those really just seem like ways of diversifying wealth and investments. Not an isk sink. All the isk bounties and NPC payouts input into the game will still be stacking up. Just changing hands a few more times. The only way to remove isk from the game is to either pay an NPC, frozen in cancelled accounts, or deleted punatively by the gamemasters.




Correct, it is not a sink. ISK spread over more production, more things for players to do other than shoot little red + signs and produce ISK. More things to trade, more markets to enter, more money going into the market - more money being removed via existing taxes and fees.

Less people shooting rats.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Adunh Slavy
#17 - 2012-04-18 02:17:07 UTC
Ethilia wrote:
More sales and broker taxes are a really bad idea. All it will do is make small single step outfits totally unprofitable. Instead, you will have to take something all the way from gathering inputs to final product since every step along the way adds cost. When taxes are low the cumulative additional cost isn't so terrible for a 5 step process, but if taxes were say 10% at each step it would be a 46% increase in cost from inputs to final product. It is impossible to compete when your costs are so out of line from big outfits who don't pay those costs.



Very good point. Vertical industry is already too easy in Eve. Adding taxes just increases the incentive to go vertical.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#18 - 2012-04-18 03:08:21 UTC
CCP has already hinted at higher taxes and tariffs. Hopefully they don't do much more then add 0.5% to the existing taxes/fees.

Ideas for new taxes, or tax income:

1) Allow station slot fees to "float". If the number of slots (of a particular type) in the station is > 50%, then raise the rent between 0.0% and 1.0% (based on how full the slots are). If the number of slots in use is < 50%, then lower the rent each day by 0.0 to 0.5%.

Right now, even though a station like Hek BCF 8-12 is 100% busy, manuf slots are still 333 ISK/hr. The research slot fees seem to float, but not that much. Not enough to force players to change.

The primary effect there would be that POS array slot costs would become cost-competitive with NPC stations after about 6 months. And after about 12-18 months of heavy usage, the station slot would be a good bit more expensive then running a POS array slot. It would sink more ISK out of the game and drive more slot usage into the hands of players. Or players would spread out to the distant regions in order to get cheaper slot fees.

It may also be necessary to raise the minimum on slot fees to about 2500 ISK/hr.

2) Higher floor on station rental fees.

I can't remember whether station office rentals are price-capped or not. If they are, then raising the price cap to a much higher level would act as a bigger ISK sink. Corps will have to decide whether they really want that office in a busy location, whether the convenience outweighs the cost.

3) Add a 0.5% convenience tariff on everything sold in a major trade-hub system. Charge 0.25% in neighbor systems.

4) Raise the fee required to change a broker order. Maybe charge 1000 or 5000 ISK instead of only 100 ISK. Even a small change here might sink a lot of ISK.

5) Allow repair fees to float based on usage/day. Give a discount if you have standing with the corp that owns the station. You always have the option of fitting a local repper.

6) Other things. That's tricky because there not much else in the game where the player has to pay ISK in order to use a service. You can't charge for jumping or docking as those are required elements of game play. The medical clone prices is already a very touchy subject for the older pilots so you don't want to raise that.
Kreeia Dgore
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-04-18 07:01:13 UTC
I am not sure it is taxes eve needs, but it sure does need more isk sinks.
This can be done in many ways:
Taxes (aparently)
Fees (for example fees for trading, ejecting a can in space, more repair costs, perhaps even making LP stuff more costly when paying with isk)
Decreasing drops from pvp wreckages (since ship has price in isk and the less it drops the less comes back into economy)
increasing insurance prices
A lottery (lets say, for every 1m you put in the jackpor increases by 500k or so)
And so on.

Just pick your favourite. CCP stated it will do something about current isk overflow, what exactly and how far they will do, that remains to be seen.
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-04-18 10:54:51 UTC
Completely agree with the OP and Scrapyard Bob. Industry slot cost and market order change fees are scandalously low. Taxes and fees should generally be a lot high in high sec than in low or null.

It's just rebalancing the other taxes like they did with PI importing/exporting
123Next pageLast page