EVE General Discussion

That has more to do with the difference in rats and players, and it's the harshness of the former that they're able to withstand…

As for handling a single destroyer or frigate, it can deliver up to 160 DPS, which would kill the standard gank destroyer in less time it takes the destroyer to kill it…

Yes, it doesn't prevent alpha strikes, but will generally save vs. a single smaller ship.

Wow, you read that and thought I was talking about gameplay realism? I guess English isn't your first language?



Holy ****, that's my argument too! Though technically mine was they are as stupid as everyone else, but it's pretty much the same thing right?



Well look at that, again I agree and made no argument to the contrary.



They are no more or less idiots than the rest of the general Eve population.



Please point me towards the New Player Experience Tutorial that teaches players how to defend against suicide ganking. Last I checked, Mining missions revolve around warping to deadspace, mining a rock, and returning it to the agent. Maybe this changed recently and I've missed the part where a random GM will warp into the pocket and try to kill the player.

Could you please address the arguments rather than grandstanding over established and universally accepted statements that only you are actually arguing about?

I'll give this one last try, hoping that deep down there's some rational thought I can reach. I'd appreciate you respond to each in a simple, straightforward manner, one after the other, without bringing up any of the previous statements we've already agreed upon and are not actually arguing.

1) Lack of learning or difficulty curve for miners; PVE players get stepped missions of slowly increasing difficulty that teaches them the basics of killing rats, tanking, resists and aggro, skills and knowledge they utilize in higher-level missions. Miners learn to activate mining lasers on asteroids and use drones to kill the occasional belt rat. PVEers lose frigates, destroyers and occasionally cruisers as part of the ravages of their first lessons learning their profession as new players. Miners lose 300mil Hulks to tiny destroyers 1/50th their cost.

2) Unless you can show me a study that proves otherwise, I stand by my statement that the overwhelming majority of new players prefer learning the game in the game and not by scrolling through hundreds of wiki pages, guides, tutorials and these scum-trodden forums. Any game that flat-out requires new players to sift through page after page after page of ****** starting guides is undeniably a terrible game. That said, it'd be cool if CCP actually invested the time in some ~ingame~ NPE arc for miners to actually prepare them for the reality of highsec ganking.

3) Cost not being a factor in balance I can agree with. It has more to do with the cost of the consequences of any particular action. In the instance of my ganking Hulks, I literally lose nothing while he loses everything. When I started this I had about -1.5 sec, and moved into a 0.7 system. It took me killing 5-6 Hulks before I finally became negative enough to go flashy in that system. I spent the next day in Nullsec ratting my sec up and making enough money from belt rats alone to pay for dozens more Catalysts. I literally lose nothing in this process, the Hulk loses what is often a massive chunk of their total assets.

Thank you and have a great day.

Of course I'm not saying that I think Hulk Griefing is good for gameplay. Skews the risk/reward balance of hi-sec waaaaaay off. This needs to be brought more into balance in the other hi sec vs low sec vs null sec system. Hi sec mining is such a low profit enterprise to begin with. What are the estimates? Something like 6mil per hour tops?

Yes players can adapt to any sort of fubared gameplay, but there is also a point where the risk/reward balance is just plain borked. Nothing about it good for the game design... just plain old fashion griefing.

They can make the hulks hard to kill would be one method. Perhaps keeping griefers relagated to frigs and destroyers (so that the hulks at least have a chance) is another (could be done by removing the sec increases from ratting to make it harder for griefers to build there sec status up again and get back into hi sec).

yk

Right now, it's somewhere in the 20M region, last I saw any numbers (haven't done them myself, so, pinch of salt and all that). That puts it on equal footing with lower-end L4 missions that are done at the same skill level.

Why not? Catalysts can gank those T2s and T3s, after all, and unlike the Hulk, those are actual combat ships. You can camp Jita and wipe out Zealots all day right now if you want to: they only have 11k EHP, which isn't a lot more than the Hulk's 9k — not enough to make a difference anyway.

So I can imagine that world very easily: it's the world of EVE 2012-04.

…and the miners get the same skillbooks and instructions haded to them, and as much guidance about how to deal with any increase in difficulty. Unless they're complete recluses in the EVE universe, they will also come across situations as they progress through their mining careers that highlight for them the dangers that lurk out there (as something actually real, and not just something mentioned in passing in the NPE), which should awaken their curiosity to what can be done to protect them against these hazards.

No. I assume that, as players progress to newer ships, they take the time to research what's needed to fly these ships and in the process learn the pros and cons about different fittings. If, during this process, they come across something they don't understand, they ask about it and learn why this is the convention. Figuring out that something else is needed when you step into something new is something players have managed fairly well over the years, and I don't assume that miners are magically less capable of doing so than everyone else.

No way! I have to start training a mining alt then...

But is that with all the hardeners and DCU and reinforced bulkheads to prevent ganking, or is it with a maxed mining setup?

... of course that argues the point that if as profitable as level 4s, then why should it be more risky? A level 4 mission takes a 150mil ship to solo. If that's the case, then why should mining need a 300mil ship and several corp mates (or alts), including a logi on constant vigilance to protect it? Still unbalanced risk vs reward.

yk