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New War Dec system - massively article - Very good points covered.

Author
YuuKnow
The Scope
#141 - 2012-04-17 15:31:10 UTC  |  Edited by: YuuKnow
Tippia wrote:
YuuKnow wrote:
CCP originally wanted a PvE zone and a PvP zone.
No. CCP originally wanted a PvP zone, which, due to excess, they had to split into a completely free PvP zone and a pay-for PvP zone. Since then, they've simply been fiddling around with the pay scale and pricing mechanics for that pay-for PvP.


Lets both be more precise. The original vision of the game was to create three zones in the galaxy with the a highest risk and highest reward zone in null sec, a lower risk and lower reward zone in low sec, and a lowest risk and lowest reward zone in hi-sec.

But along the way things got all skewed. Hi-sec rewards are now too high in high sec incursions with little risk. Mining in hi-sec has now become one of the more risky activities because of hi-sec hulk ganking. These by there very nature turn the original risk/reward structure upside down. Where grief decs sit in all of this are the question at hand... Is the imminent grief-dec skewing the risk reward ratios in a wrong direction?

Then again, how does CCP mitigate the uber rewards of the Jita market giants with their billion isk/week hi-sec manufacturing and trading strategies. The war decs are one way to do it... but is it the best way? Maybe what needs to be done itself is not to increase the hi-sec risks... but rather to decrease the hi-sec rewards in terms of decreased incursion payouts and higher hi-sec taxes to make profits lower. This would be a better way then just making hi-sec another griefers vector. Otherwise all the games zones play out pretty much the same.

yk
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#142 - 2012-04-17 15:44:17 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Killboard is an out of game feature that is mostly watched by other PvPers for e-peen slapping. You can see in this very thread an example of joining and leaving a corp dozens of times, this is how important will be to stay in same corp or disband it.
Also, killboards can be managed to be retained across corporations since it's just a website, a visitor won't see what went behind it.

No, the kill mail system is an in game feature that relies on 3rd party boards to function. Just because a single aspect of it is provided by a 3rd party doesn't render it irrelevant.

When recruiting corporations will use their kill boards, if you force them to reset their corporation and subsequently their kill board you will be setting them back considerably. As for kill boards being managed across multiple corporations, no. That is not how they work.

And yes, if you look at people's corp history corp hopping happens extensively. This is usually to avoid war decs. For example this character hopped in and out of the last alliance I was in a few times, because I dropped corp whenever I was transporting anything expensive.

Simi Kusoni wrote:
A small indy corp won't pull much more than that. It's why attackers ask for 500M to 2B ransoms and not 2 trillions.

If you honestly believe a small industrial corp pulls a total of 300m a day then you've been doing something drastically wrong in Eve. Maybe some very bad one man operations pull that little, but for most players 300m is the equivalent of two, maybe three hours gameplay.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#143 - 2012-04-17 16:32:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Simi Kusoni wrote:

No, the kill mail system is an in game feature that relies on 3rd party boards to function. Just because a single aspect of it is provided by a 3rd party doesn't render it irrelevant.


Making a PHP script that parses the API and replaces the corp names before storing them in the database does not seem impossible.

Simi Kusoni wrote:

If you honestly believe a small industrial corp pulls a total of 300m a day then you've been doing something drastically wrong in Eve. Maybe some very bad one man operations pull that little, but for most players 300m is the equivalent of two, maybe three hours gameplay.


Not all farm incursions.
Also look at the average money per player data that CCP posted. It's much less overabundant than you say.
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
#144 - 2012-04-17 16:48:06 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:
The original vision of the game was to create three zones in the galaxy with the a highest risk and highest reward zone in null sec, a lower risk and lower reward zone in low sec, and a lowest risk and lowest reward zone in hi-sec.

But along the way things got all skewed. Hi-sec rewards are now too high in high sec incursions with little risk. Mining in hi-sec has now become one of the more risky activities because of hi-sec hulk ganking. These by there very nature turn the original risk/reward structure upside down. Where grief decs sit in all of this are the question at hand... Is the imminent grief-dec skewing the risk reward ratios in a wrong direction?

Then again, how does CCP mitigate the uber rewards of the Jita market giants with their billion isk/week hi-sec manufacturing and trading strategies. The war decs are one way to do it... but is it the best way? Maybe what needs to be done itself is not to increase the hi-sec risks... but rather to decrease the hi-sec rewards in terms of decreased incursion payouts and higher hi-sec taxes to make profits lower. This would be a better way then just making hi-sec another griefers vector. Otherwise all the games zones play out pretty much the same.

yk

None of what you posted has anything to do with war decs. For someone who has been playing since 03 you are remarkably ignorant.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#145 - 2012-04-17 17:08:44 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Making a PHP script that parses the API and replaces the corp names before storing them in the database does not seem impossible.

No, but it isn't something that happens.

If you were to do that, and create a kill board filled with altered or fake kill mails, the discrepancy would show during comparisons to battle clinic or eve kill. You would be mocked to the ends of the Earth, and your recruitment thread would probably get trolled into oblivion.

Especially if it become apparent that the reason you were faking kill mails was because you had to reform your corp after someone declared a war mutual and tried to hold you hostage. Lol

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Not all farm incursions.
Also look at the average money per player data that CCP posted. It's much less overabundant than you say.

Incursions, now officially the only income source in Eve. Lol.

Anyway, CCP statistics are pretty much useless, especially when you don't bother to link them. I mean, what is it, average isk per hour? How is that calculated? I have three alts, does that mean CCP count me as making <100m an hour when I'm doing PvE because it's done per account? Is it based on the amount of ISK in my wallet? In which case stats would show 75% of players are **** poor, coz I keep all my money on one toon.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Sigurd Sig Hansen
Doomheim
#146 - 2012-04-17 17:24:53 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

If you honestly believe a small industrial corp pulls a total of 300m a day then you've been doing something drastically wrong in Eve. Maybe some very bad one man operations pull that little, but for most players 300m is the equivalent of two, maybe three hours gameplay.


Where the hell are you mining in highsec?

Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game

Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#147 - 2012-04-17 17:28:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
I personally think "Massively" got it on the head. The change is no change, its just much of the same but they closed a few bugs/exploits but left the dumb mechanics. There is literally NO effect on the attacker and no way for the defender to end the war early! Christ, even "eve university" says it! After the new war dec system gets released, people are gonna do the same > LOGOFF. It helps NOONE and does not promote conflict, if anything promotes inactivity, which already is a problem for EVE, and how are you got grow the community with inactivity?

I really wish CCP read that article from Massively. Its all there....

By proving a way to beat the attacker you promote activity and conflict! The attacker must be forced to defend his "structures" just like in 0.0 or low sec. Otherwise whats the use???

Ages ago when I was in a young corp the attitude was

"It actually bores me to hell."
"We cant do anything as we cant log and we cant retaliate."
"Oh look another wardec. Nevermind. Logofski."

I bet its pritty much of the same now days with the newer corps.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#148 - 2012-04-17 17:29:12 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

If you were to do that, and create a kill board filled with altered or fake kill mails, the discrepancy would show during comparisons to battle clinic or eve kill. You would be mocked to the ends of the Earth, and your recruitment thread would probably get trolled into oblivion.


There's plenty of 2-5 men small merc / harass / station games corps, it'll be hard to go check them out, and it's not like they had a big name to defend to begin with.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Not all farm incursions.
Also look at the average money per player data that CCP posted. It's much less overabundant than you say.

Incursions, now officially the only income source in Eve. Lol.

Anyway, CCP statistics are pretty much useless, especially when you don't bother to link them. I mean, what is it, average isk per hour? How is that calculated? I have three alts, does that mean CCP count me as making <100m an hour when I'm doing PvE because it's done per account? Is it based on the amount of ISK in my wallet? In which case stats would show 75 pct of players are **** poor, coz I keep all my money on one toon.[/quote]

I refer to something like this.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#149 - 2012-04-17 17:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
There's plenty of 2-5 men small merc / harass / station games corps, it'll be hard to go check them out, and it's not like they had a big name to defend to begin with.

If you are honestly having trouble with a 2-5 man corporation you deserve to be forced to dissolve your corporation.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Average ISK in wallet

Well, there is your problem with those stats. Let's have a look at one example:

Average for characters on active accounts: 372tn ISK / 745,000 = 499 million ISK

Now work out the effect of alts on this calculation.

*EDIT: Also, cool, if I sell some assets I'm nearly in the top 100 :D Thought the average would be higher than that.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Jim Luc
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#150 - 2012-04-17 18:06:51 UTC
Xorv wrote:
bornaa wrote:

Comments???


The article and it's ideas for Wardecs are terrible.

The worst part is the structure idea, making you have to defend a static location gives all the power to blobs and is yet another blow to small gangs and guerrilla warfare.


So make it multiple locations located in the defender's systems? The attacker should have something valuable that can be lost, not just paying a bribe so concord looks the other way... Risk vs reward, amiright?
Daneirkus Auralex
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2012-04-17 18:08:05 UTC
What if the aggressor corp could no longer dock at NPC stations for which the defender corp has high standings?
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#152 - 2012-04-17 18:20:24 UTC
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

If you honestly believe a small industrial corp pulls a total of 300m a day then you've been doing something drastically wrong in Eve. Maybe some very bad one man operations pull that little, but for most players 300m is the equivalent of two, maybe three hours gameplay.


Where the hell are you mining in highsec?



Probably any old belt. Though you are restricting it solely to mining or bot as some of us call it. Industrial's build and sell as well and it's easy to have all 3 going at once.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#153 - 2012-04-17 18:30:11 UTC
Jim Luc wrote:
Xorv wrote:
bornaa wrote:

Comments???


The article and it's ideas for Wardecs are terrible.

The worst part is the structure idea, making you have to defend a static location gives all the power to blobs and is yet another blow to small gangs and guerrilla warfare.


So make it multiple locations located in the defender's systems? The attacker should have something valuable that can be lost, not just paying a bribe so concord looks the other way... Risk vs reward, amiright?

How do you define the "defender's systems"? My corp at the moment is an alt corp based in syndicate, could I now war dec a high sec care bear alliance and they'd have to come into syndicate with a structure grinding force to fight back against me?

That would certainly be entertaining at the very least.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2012-04-17 20:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sri Nova
Simi Kusoni wrote:

How do you define the "defender's systems"? My corp at the moment is an alt corp based in syndicate, could I now war dec a high sec care bear alliance and they'd have to come into syndicate with a structure grinding force to fight back against me?

That would certainly be entertaining at the very least.



If the warring parties were banned from NPC stations. Then waging war from syndicate into high sec would place a huge amount of stress on your war party. This is why warring parties should be banned from NPC stations, it gives immediate need to get the war over and done with. While creating a need for logistics so they can run the war, with the bonus of putting both parties at risk .
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#155 - 2012-04-17 20:07:28 UTC
Sri Nova wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

How do you define the "defender's systems"? My corp at the moment is an alt corp based in syndicate, could I now war dec a high sec care bear alliance and they'd have to come into syndicate with a structure grinding force to fight back against me?

That would certainly be entertaining at the very least.



If the warring parties were banned from NPC stations. Then waging war from syndicate into high sec would place a huge amount of stress on your war party. This is why warring parties should be banned from NPC stations, it gives immediate need to get the war over and done with. While creating a need for logistics so they can run the war, with the bonus of putting both parties at risk .

Well, I honestly can't argue with that well thought out and completely impossible to exploit idea.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Serene Repose
#156 - 2012-04-17 21:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
CCP - Your board sucks. It reeks of having lost control of your technology. Not a comforting feeling.

War should be the province of player sov. Since sov is only holdable in 0.0, it can only occur in 0.0. (Try counting how many "problems" this present system has which that would solve.) Hi and Lo sec already have existing sov. Only Minmatar, Amarr, Caldari and Gallente can declare war in their specific zones. Their wars are on their borders, ipso facto.

This would solve the abuses of the War Dec, removing it from the reach of griefer corps. It would remove the absurdity of thinking you can declare and operate a war in someone else's sovereign domain...what is CONCORD being paid for but to maintain order?

Further, it would provide the much needed incentive to move players from hi to null sec as a matter of player development and maturation. It would return the goal of "being good enough to play in null sec." This in turn would open the flood gates for null sec recruitment, thus making competitive the obtaining of new players. Not to mention...though I will....provide an incentive for the better players, to turn their attention to newer players...give a reason to help them develop. Null sec's warrior draft system.

This would create meaning to the phrase, "If you want to play (EVE) with the big dogs, you have to get off the porch." The "endgame content" would become more significant to the newer players. It would even give the older players another dimension to the game that would require organization and planning. He who doesn't recruit from the welling ranks becomes outnumbered. It would also make it rather risky to try to settle with a handful of people "you know you can trust" and make people start running a few risks...you know - the ones that like to pretend they're doing that already.

Look at the map. Empire is tiny compared to null. The game should be played out there. The rules should be made out there. Hi and lo should be boring. "Nothing ever happens in hi or lo," is how you get people out of there into the real space.

May the whining begin.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#157 - 2012-04-17 21:41:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
lol npc forum alt opinion
if you remove pvp from high/lowsec, that should include market/economic pvp. So just disable all markets/bounties/mining/incursions in highsec and I'll consider agreeing with it
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#158 - 2012-04-17 21:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Jowen Datloran wrote:
As long as high sec wars puts nothing at stake for the aggressor, consequently making it impossible for a defender to gain something from a victory, they will continue to be a "pay-to-grief" tool.


The war deck system should force all agressors to post a 100 million ISK per corp member deposit which if the agressor doen't kill more ships then it loses the deposit goes to the defender or if they corp hop after the war starts to evade loses. That way if the agressor never comes out to fight they are penalized for a frivlous war & greifers that corp hop 1/2 way after the start of a war are forced to pay 100 million deposit & lose the deposit to the defenders if they kill a few ships then leave when the heat later comes down on them.
This will also give the defenders a reason to fight back instead of curl into a ball
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#159 - 2012-04-17 21:52:50 UTC
no that's stupid, shut up
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#160 - 2012-04-17 21:57:09 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
CCP - Your board sucks. It reeks of having lost control of your technology. Not a comforting feeling.

War should be the province of player sov. Since sov is only holdable in 0.0, it can only occur in 0.0. (Try counting how many "problems" this present system has which that would solve.) Hi and Lo sec already have existing sov. Only Minmatar, Amarr, Caldari and Gallente can declare war in their specific zones. Their wars are on their borders, ipso facto.

This would solve the abuses of the War Dec, removing it from the reach of griefer corps. It would remove the absurdity of thinking you can declare and operate a war in someone else's sovereign domain...what is CONCORD being paid for but to maintain order?

Further, it would provide the much needed incentive to move players from hi to null sec as a matter of player development and maturation. It would return the goal of "being good enough to play in null sec." This in turn would open the flood gates for null sec recruitment, thus making competitive the obtaining of new players. Not to mention...though I will....provide an incentive for the better players, to turn their attention to newer players...give a reason to help them develop. Null sec's warrior draft system.

This would create meaning to the phrase, "If you want to play (EVE) with the big dogs, you have to get off the porch." The "endgame content" would become more significant to the newer players. It would even give the older players another dimension to the game that would require organization and planning. He who doesn't recruit from the welling ranks becomes outnumbered. It would also make it rather risky to try to settle with a handful of people "you know you can trust" and make people start running a few risks...you know - the ones that like to pretend they're doing that already.

Look at the map. Empire is tiny compared to null. The game should be played out there. The rules should be made out there. Hi and lo should be boring. "Nothing ever happens in hi or lo," is how you get people out of there into the real space.

May the whining begin.


I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this post. One of the crowning achievements of eve is that endgame has a different meaning for everyone. My ideal endgame does not include being random ship #3746 sitting at a gate waiting for some guy on TS to tell me to shoot at something, while the main branch of the fleet is actually having fun cleaning out the system of POS's.
I am at my current endgame and I am enjoying it. Maybe some day my endgame will change and I will enjoy that version as well. If I want to go back to linear, which is what you are suggesting, well I've got plenty of games to choose from.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **