Warfare & Tactics

Apparently I should clarify.

I am NOT advocating NOR suggesting that all PvP should be removed from the game. PvP is a very important part of every MMO game ever introduced.

What I am addressing in my OP is the sort of 'forced pvp' that occurs against players who have no ability to defend themselves. Please understand that I am not speaking of any specific incident or tactic. This is not about suicide ganking, can flipping, highsec war decs, or anything of the sort. it is about players who spend their time in game solely trying to upset and harass other players.

What am trying to ascertain is the mentality behind spending hours upon hours in game not trying to make progress for oneself, but instead trying to impede the progress of others.

I've been around long enough to know that the majority of people who engage in non-consensual PvP do it for "the lolz" or "tears", but what does this really mean? I would love to have someone take my question seriously and provide a serious answer, rather than hiding behind whatever meme they deem appropriate.


I actually have massive amounts of respect for those who participate in PvP outside empire space. Highsec bullies, not so much.

I this what the world is coming to? No wonder threads like this devolve so quickly into the terrified shouts of people who fear having to actually work a bit to have a giggle at someone else's expense.

The day EvE *actually* sugar-coats everything (as opposed to just making people be sure they REALLY want to be randomly violent in the places where thematically you should have to be REALLY sure you want to be randomly violent) is they day it *actually* dies. Thankfully, almost nobody wants that, just as almost nobody really wants everything to be any one other part of EvE... but I think so many people here have had such a bad time of it in new-age-y do-it-all games (like WOW) that invariably turn out to be really fancy facebook games (like WOW), there's a built-in reaction not just any time someone suggests making hi-sec more secure (even if it's by way of fixing things that are *blindingly obviously not intended*) but any time anything other than their personally preferred playstyle is discussed and presented as valid.

What's interesting (to me, at least) is how varied the playstyles of everyone involved in these "discussions" actually are, and how much they benefit from each other. Not in terms of "carebear mining = violence-junkie equipment emporium," but in the basic richness of the overall population (someone's already mentioned it, but it does seem to get lost in the noise quite often). The fact that you *can* play in so many different ways is one of the strengths of this game, and so it really shouldn't surprise people when a question like this comes up. Why DO some players actively seek to declare certain playstyles "invalid" or "wrong?" I don't mean people coming on the forums and complaining about how incursions are out of control or how some bad person managed to destroy their "invincible" ship or any of the usual hyperbolic nonsense, I mean the fundamental disgust expressed against basic aspects such as missioning, being vulnerable, and the thought of consentual mining. The only two explanations I've been able to come up with are probably both to some degree correct: Firstly, regardless of how we play most of us who actually *enjoy* the game are pretty heavily invested in it sentimentally, and the last thing anyone wants is for someone else to come and kick over the haystack now that it finally seems to be heading in a good direction; secondly, the population of EvE is largely made up of sociopaths.

So, really, the answer to, "why does how some people play offend others," is partly because "others" are a bunch of jerks, but partly because they care.

For most, it's not about having a vendetta against you, it's simply easier and more fun to loot a faction module from someone elses ship than to spend the time to mission for it. For people that are dead set on not even learning to defend themselves, much less get aggressive, there is probably no way that you could ascertain the mentality behind the joy of breaking open a pinata full of fancy faction stuff. This is a game where we are all allowed to do this within certain limitations, so why not.

Someone pointed out that Eve is full of sociopaths and he may be right. There are few people that given an opportunity to gank a faction battleship, knowing that they would be successful, would walk from that opportunity. As far as PvP outside Empire, you forget that Empire is Eve too, only with different rules of engagement.

Just because people don't fit their PvE ships to be defensible doesn't mean they can't. To say that CCP made it impossible is absolutely untrue. I run Sanctums and Plexes in a PvP fit ship. Solo. If the're unwilling to do this, there's a directional scanner that you can watch to see trouble coming, and the old fallback.. fleetmates.

There's no doubt that when Eve was being developed, the idea of separating the two was on the table. They decided against it. I guess people are just stuck with other people wanting to take your stuff. You don't even need to go grab a pirate costume, friends with logistics ships work fine. There are many ways to fend off or avoid attackers without firing a shot. Why does the game need to change so people can be lazy and not have to pay attention? I have quite a few "mains", doing everything from hisec/lowsec missioning, piracy, empire building, etc, most without a GSF tag. With the changes to minerals I may even stoop to mining. All of the problems people complain about, I have to deal with as well with the same tools as anyone else. The difference is that some folks cry and some folks adapt.

Look elsewhere for the easy button.

If PvP were voluntary, then it would just another dueling game. And I disagree with your statement. Pvp is an afterthought in just about every other MMO. PvP in other MMOs is nothing but a means for players to compare the sizes of their e-peens.

In EVE it is different. Because Pvp affects every aspect of the game and no where is truly safe, PVP is an important part of EVE. The PvP experience matters. Hate, anger, misery, laughter, triumph, defeat, these are REAL in EVE. In other games, players will dress in white armor, claim to be the Knight of Goodness, and then go looking for someone wearing bat wings, declair they are evil. They duel, one wins, the other loses. Whichever loses doesn't matter, because the both laugh it off and decide to try again tomarrow.

In EVE when you fight someone that is evil, you're not fighting someone who wears black, and has extra long canines. You are fighting someone who is truly trying to ruin your day. If another player decides to defend all right and goodness, he doesn't prove his pureness of heart by wearing white and challenging someone with red eyes to a friendly duel. He will guard some traveling merchants or miners from aggression, and drive any bandits away.

Both sides of this has beaning. If someone wants to play an evil character, they can actually be evil. If someone wants to play good, they can play good. If someone want's to play the victim, they can really be the victim. But through it all, what you do is real. Eve is about being real, not the pretense of real.

Of course I'm using terms like Good and Evil for their inflammatory nature. To I don't personally see good or evil having much application in a game where you can't really be hurt. How hurt you feel is more of how enamored a player becomes not an intrinsic aspect of the other player's actions in game.

Some will stay docked because they don't have any PvP-skills at all, and know that there's nothing they can do to survive for even a minute, most likely also because they don't have any useful PvP-ships at hand.

Could turn this just around like: If you're so into PVP, why don't you just play CS?

EVE is far more complex than relying only on "kill, boom, bang", it has a complex economy, a social community, some just play the game for trade, production, or R&D - simply to stay in contact with friends, to chat, joke and for fun.

And this complexity was the intention, not another silly "high noon in space".

... and there is fails. EVE markets are PVP. So you are doing pvp. And you are even forced to do so by a war dec.

This just shows how you don't know what you are talking about. Playing the market is a form of PVP. You are a player, competing with other players to spend the least and gain the most.



Most of us are fine with people not wanting to engage in PVP activities. That is their loss. It's when people like to complain to CCP and try to have the entire game changed just because they are getting what they signed up for, a sandbox. There are kids who like to build sandcastles and others who like to kick sand in other kid's faces.



As a part-time mission runner myself I can safely say it does indeed impact PVP in some ways. PVE is yet another demand on ships, raising the prices.



I could easily ask the group you represent the same question.


Again, another circle of questions could be offered back. Who creates the demand for minerals? Who are the people paying you? Who are the people keeping the EVE economy spinning? Combat pilots. Without us there would be an overabundance of minerals. Even high end minerals would be worthless.

I've been thinking about this lately. In EvE I recently became a miner. At this point I can spare time for that, I cannot commit to something more - like null sec. However I am a very competitive player, even if I am not competing in any kind of PvP in EvE, at this point. So it really baffles me when someone comes to me and wants to kill my Retriever, that could last a few shots tops. How is that logical? And what does that say for the player doing it? To me, as someone who has been PvP-ing and playing on a very high level in quite a few online games, this is not PvP. This is what happens when sad people are trying to make other people sad. Now I'm a new player in Eve, I've invested some Isk on a BC, then some on this Retriever which has an expensive fit(for my in game finances). Then some sad person comes and destroys my humble investment in this Retriever. He's not doing any sort of PvP by doing so, because I do not pose any kind of threat. My ship is not armed and cannot be defended. I'm just there doing what I've decided to do.

The big issue is, that there are no consequences. Losing a silly frigate is not a consequence. It's a laughable loss. Now if someone was to come in RL to my work place and punch me in the face, do you think, that this person will face no consequences to this act of aggression towards me? You bet your ass he will. There will be severe consequences ranging from me punching him back, to me suing the guy.

See the thing is, most people feel safe behind their computers. And this brings out their real self. The one that's full of sh*t. And because they can't spew their sh*t in RL, they do it in game, and claim it to be PvP. It is not. It is no different than RL griefing. A game is a game, but when you are involved with other people, there should be boundaries to what you can do and consequences when you cross them. As simple as that.

How many will come and destroy my little Retriever to make their little penises feel good, if say they became an outlaw in all of High Sec and are shot on sight by Concord for a longer period of time? Why not? I lose a lot when I lose a huge investment, they lose nothing. I risk a lot going out to mine, they risk nothing. Generally most people are idiots and this is why good behavior is enforced in RL and should be enforced in Eve, the same way it's enforced in every other MMO.

By the way, by calling ganking high sec mining ships PvP, you really insult yourself.