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[Proposal] Titan Balance (Updated 3/13/2012)

Author
Tar Omrir
Bregan D'aerthe.
#101 - 2012-04-11 21:23:02 UTC
I disagree on the siege. Titans shouldn't become a tech two dread.

Tar Omrir, Chairman, Cygnus Industries

Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#102 - 2012-04-12 02:18:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayrendo Karr
The titan is a mobile outpost with the abilities to destroy other mobile outpost (titans), it shouldn't be able to hit a subcap even if said subcap were in the barrel or silo of the titans main weapon. Moving an XL weapon barrel should be extremly slow, otherwise the barrels would bend from inertia and stress due to their immense size. Shooting a battle ship with a titan should be like shooting a bumble bee at 5 miles with a 120mm cannon.


Dreads are made for combat, titans are made for support.
Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2012-04-12 19:56:13 UTC
Tar Omrir wrote:
I disagree on the siege. Titans shouldn't become a tech two dread.


Then how would you implement a damage increase, while also providing a risk in using that boosted damage?
Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-04-12 20:02:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyran Scorpi
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
The titan is a mobile outpost with the abilities to destroy other mobile outpost (titans), it shouldn't be able to hit a subcap even if said subcap were in the barrel or silo of the titans main weapon. Moving an XL weapon barrel should be extremly slow, otherwise the barrels would bend from inertia and stress due to their immense size. Shooting a battle ship with a titan should be like shooting a bumble bee at 5 miles with a 120mm cannon.


Dreads are made for combat, titans are made for support.


A titan is not a mobile outpost. It is a fleet boosting, force projecting, superweapon equipped, capital weapon combat machine. Which in my opinion is too much, hence the proposal to divide up its capabilities into separate ships.

Yes I agree it should not be able to hit subcaps, but like ive already said, CCP is working on a fix for that.

As ive already pointed out, the titan is not a support ship. They are made for combat, even more so in fact since they have multiple combat roles that synergize together than dreads do.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#105 - 2012-04-12 20:07:50 UTC
Tyran Scorpi wrote:
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
The titan is a mobile outpost with the abilities to destroy other mobile outpost (titans), it shouldn't be able to hit a subcap even if said subcap were in the barrel or silo of the titans main weapon. Moving an XL weapon barrel should be extremly slow, otherwise the barrels would bend from inertia and stress due to their immense size. Shooting a battle ship with a titan should be like shooting a bumble bee at 5 miles with a 120mm cannon.


Dreads are made for combat, titans are made for support.


A titan is not a mobile outpost. It is a fleet boosting, force projecting, superweapon equipped, capital weapon combat machine. Which in my opinion is too much, hence the proposal to divide up its capabilities into separate ships.

Yes I agree it should not be able to hit subcaps, but like ive already said, CCP is working on a fix for that.

As ive already pointed out, the titan is not a support ship. They are made for combat, even more so in fact since they have multiple combat roles that synergize together than dreads do.

It isn't but it should be, an can in fact be turned into one. Titans are conceptually incompatible with Eve. You can't make them a powerful enough combat ship to be worthy of what they are supposed to be without unbalancing the whole game. They should never have existed, but they do now. Best approach is to redo them completely in a non-combat role, since just deleting them is not a viable option.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Tar Omrir
Bregan D'aerthe.
#106 - 2012-04-13 01:30:33 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Tyran Scorpi wrote:
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
The titan is a mobile outpost with the abilities to destroy other mobile outpost (titans), it shouldn't be able to hit a subcap even if said subcap were in the barrel or silo of the titans main weapon. Moving an XL weapon barrel should be extremly slow, otherwise the barrels would bend from inertia and stress due to their immense size. Shooting a battle ship with a titan should be like shooting a bumble bee at 5 miles with a 120mm cannon.


Dreads are made for combat, titans are made for support.


A titan is not a mobile outpost. It is a fleet boosting, force projecting, superweapon equipped, capital weapon combat machine. Which in my opinion is too much, hence the proposal to divide up its capabilities into separate ships.

Yes I agree it should not be able to hit subcaps, but like ive already said, CCP is working on a fix for that.

As ive already pointed out, the titan is not a support ship. They are made for combat, even more so in fact since they have multiple combat roles that synergize together than dreads do.

It isn't but it should be, an can in fact be turned into one. Titans are conceptually incompatible with Eve. You can't make them a powerful enough combat ship to be worthy of what they are supposed to be without unbalancing the whole game. They should never have existed, but they do now. Best approach is to redo them completely in a non-combat role, since just deleting them is not a viable option.



But u can. Limit the amount of ingame titans, then u can make them very powerful without breaking the game.

Tar Omrir, Chairman, Cygnus Industries

Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#107 - 2012-04-13 13:43:48 UTC
Tar Omrir wrote:

But u can. Limit the amount of ingame titans, then u can make them very powerful without breaking the game.

Who get to keep their titans? Are you suggesting CCP take titans away from anyone who has to many? How exactly would you propose to do this with out creating a potential situation where one side has an overwhelming number of titans?

If you limit it to say, 10, at least 7 of those 10 will end up joining the same alliance because titans are much safer with other titans around. Do you understand why this would be a problem?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Tobiaz
Spacerats
#108 - 2012-04-13 16:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Tyran Scorpi wrote:
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
The titan is a mobile outpost with the abilities to destroy other mobile outpost (titans), it shouldn't be able to hit a subcap even if said subcap were in the barrel or silo of the titans main weapon. Moving an XL weapon barrel should be extremly slow, otherwise the barrels would bend from inertia and stress due to their immense size. Shooting a battle ship with a titan should be like shooting a bumble bee at 5 miles with a 120mm cannon.


Dreads are made for combat, titans are made for support.


A titan is not a mobile outpost. It is a fleet boosting, force projecting, superweapon equipped, capital weapon combat machine. Which in my opinion is too much, hence the proposal to divide up its capabilities into separate ships.

Yes I agree it should not be able to hit subcaps, but like ive already said, CCP is working on a fix for that.

As ive already pointed out, the titan is not a support ship. They are made for combat, even more so in fact since they have multiple combat roles that synergize together than dreads do.


They SHOULD be support ships. As long as it's a combat ship we will continue to see fleets with dozens of titans.

Titans should be mobile stations with full docking, logging on/off capability for docked players, (upgradable) station-services, and corporation-owned and operated in the same way POS are.

Their role should be forward command-posts for big sov-alliances and mobile HQ's for more nomadic smaller alliances.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!

Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2012-04-13 20:05:01 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:

You can't make them a powerful enough combat ship to be worthy of what they are supposed to be without unbalancing the whole game.


With as many roles as titans currently have, you are correct that they unbalance the whole game. However, if we were to cut down on the number of roles they were able to perform in, they become much easier to balance properly while still being appropriately powerful.

Tar Omrir wrote:

But u can. Limit the amount of ingame titans, then u can make them very powerful without breaking the game.


All of the methods of limiting titans I have seen thus far are unsatisfactory to downright terrible from a coding standpoint. An adjustment of the superweapon and the roles a titan can perform would be a much easier fix.

Tobiaz wrote:

As long as it's a combat ship we will continue to see fleets with dozens of titans.

Titans should be mobile stations with full docking, logging on/off capability for docked players, (upgradable) station-services, and corporation-owned and operated in the same way POS are.


I don't see a problem with large fleets of titans, the problem I see is that said fleets of titans have no counter, and that's what needs to be fixed. They are currently far too capable and fitting them into a more focused role seems to be the easiest and simplest method of fixing it that I have seen.

I kind of agree that you should be able to dock subcaps in a titan, but not capitals. You should not be able to log out while docked in a titan and I dont see any purpose for station services in a titan other than perhaps a repair bay. Titans should not be associated with a POS in any way shape or form IMO. If you want a station, build a station, you can buy 4 of them for the price of a titan.
Tar Omrir
Bregan D'aerthe.
#110 - 2012-04-13 20:09:39 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Tar Omrir wrote:

But u can. Limit the amount of ingame titans, then u can make them very powerful without breaking the game.

Who get to keep their titans? Are you suggesting CCP take titans away from anyone who has to many? How exactly would you propose to do this with out creating a potential situation where one side has an overwhelming number of titans?

If you limit it to say, 10, at least 7 of those 10 will end up joining the same alliance because titans are much safer with other titans around. Do you understand why this would be a problem?



Limit Titan pilots can only join corps that are in alliances, and these corps can only have one player with one of the Titan skill books injected in corp. A alliance could only have one tiatn capable corp at a time. all exsisting titans would be kept, however it you owned a Titan u would be forced to drop corp.

Tar Omrir, Chairman, Cygnus Industries

Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2012-04-13 20:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyran Scorpi
Tar Omrir wrote:

Limit Titan pilots can only join corps that are in alliances, and these corps can only have one player with one of the Titan skill books injected in corp. A alliance could only have one tiatn capable corp at a time. all exsisting titans would be kept, however it you owned a Titan u would be forced to drop corp.


Yet another terrible idea.... what about corps with 15 people with titan skillbooks injected, even if none of them have the ship to go with it, are you going to force them to not be able to play together?

EDIT: Corps that build titans need several people capable of flying them, and will also need at least 1 of each skillbook, so your limit on titan skillbooks would need to be at least 10 or more per corp.
Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-04-16 18:54:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyran Scorpi
I suppose I shouldnt have jumped on that suggestion quite as hard as I did, but PLEASE put some thought into your suggestions before you make them. Its hard not to respond aggressively to a suggestion that has that many holes in it.

EDIT: Altho, I would much prefer some suggestions on how to improve the current proposal, rather than all the individual ideas on what should be done to fix titans.
Azrael Dinn
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#113 - 2012-04-17 10:06:08 UTC
Mayby a new ship type thats bigger than a titan? Twisted

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#114 - 2012-04-17 15:45:53 UTC
I would go with two ships, actually. Split the bridging, clones, and fleet bonuses off the titan for a mothership hull. Titans in a pure combat role makes sense though. I think the whole titans shooting subcaps thing will be a thing of the past soon. CCP seems to be on the right path to fixing them, post Fan Fest.
Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2012-04-17 16:13:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyran Scorpi
Bagehi wrote:
I would go with two ships, actually. Split the bridging, clones, and fleet bonuses off the titan for a mothership hull. Titans in a pure combat role makes sense though.


hmmm, but with the fleet bonuses on the mothership, you would have to bring it into the combat system to take advantage of them... which may not be a bad thing, more of them will get killed. The other thought is that if you are putting the fleet bonuses on the mothership, you need to have 1 for each race, or give all 4 titan fleet bonuses to 1 ship. Alternately, allow the mothership to fit 1 or 2 of the possible 4 fleet bonuses at once. Given these options I think I would still prefer the fleet bonuses on the titan.

I also think the capital weapons should be given a dedicated platform, and the superweapon buffed to compensate. What would be your reasoning for keeping them together?
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#116 - 2012-04-18 05:04:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
The titan is a mobile outpost with the abilities to destroy other mobile outpost (titans), it shouldn't be able to hit a subcap even if said subcap were in the barrel or silo of the titans main weapon. Moving an XL weapon barrel should be extremly slow, otherwise the barrels would bend from inertia and stress due to their immense size. Shooting a battle ship with a titan should be like shooting a bumble bee at 5 miles with a 120mm cannon.


Dreads are made for combat, titans are made for support capital overkill.


I agree. Supers should not be anti-sub cap platforms.

In the same breath, shooting at a super with anything smaller than a XL gun /bombers should result in absolutely no damage to shields captain.

Puny munitions worthless munitions, regardless of how big your BS blob is...

After all, the lack of force generated by those small arms against its massive hull is just insignificant enough to do nothing worth caring about. Otherwise, it would be like flies hitting your windshield on the highway, going through the window, through your brain, flip the car and come out the other side unharmed....

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2012-04-19 05:38:59 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:

I agree. Supers should not be anti-sub cap platforms.

In the same breath, shooting at a super with anything smaller than a XL gun /bombers should result in absolutely no damage to shields captain.

Puny munitions worthless munitions, regardless of how big your BS blob is...

After all, the lack of force generated by those small arms against its massive hull is just insignificant enough to do nothing worth caring about. Otherwise, it would be like flies hitting your windshield on the highway, going through the window, through your brain, flip the car and come out the other side unharmed....


If subcaps couldn't hurt a titan, and titans crap on regular capitals, it would be just as unbalanced as they are now. I could probably agree that anything smaller than battleship class weapons shouldn't do much of anything to a titan, but battleships should be the primary counter to titans.
Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2012-04-24 06:52:50 UTC
bump
Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2012-04-28 18:23:02 UTC
Still looking for good ideas.
Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2012-05-03 20:12:33 UTC
bump