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Secrets of a former RMT buyer and a warning to RMTers
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Greg Valanti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-04-17 11:47:05 UTC
Kreeia Dgore wrote:
I wonder how long did it take CCP to find out this system, since they are banning for it. Ideas?


There are a lot of data points within the account information, game logs, and internet connection information, which I assume they are able to cross reference with known RMT operations.
Prophet Avater
Imperium Technologies
Sigma Grindset
#22 - 2012-04-18 12:06:44 UTC
Those player even though they're small percentage in the game take out huge amount of resources, it was estimated 100,000 to 200,000 thousand dollars where taken out of the game by one of the most used RMT websites. I was tempted once to use such resources but instead out of nature paid for plexs, even though I could of both 1 plex for 8 dollars instead of 20 dollars.

They usually tempt newier members, that don't have much to spend in RL but need the isk, they rather buy 2 plexs for 16 dollars instead of paying 20 dollars for one.
clixor
Celluloid Gurus
#23 - 2012-04-18 12:38:36 UTC
Prophet Avater wrote:

They usually tempt newier members, that don't have much to spend in RL but need the isk, they rather buy 2 plexs for 16 dollars instead of paying 20 dollars for one.


I find this RMT process highly illogical.

Lazy player doesnt have time/motivation to grind/whatever but goes through ALL this effort (and huge risk, think about CC info being compromised) for iskies while netting the exact same result (be it for a few bucks more) is possible within a few seconds.

ShockedWhat?

I think CCP is really nailing it this time with botting and RMT. Two things that ruined the game for me and my 5 alt account and made me quit. For the time being i'm back with just this account, we'll see.

Only thing i'd like to see is CCP is going one step further and preventing people with negative wallets in making new accounts because unless it's a VERY high SP account there is little incentive to put it in the black again.

And props for OP for 'coming out', there should be a RMT-anomynous group :)
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-04-18 13:35:22 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
I see RMT as a slight problem as they use bots but botting is by far the biggest scourge whether it's RMT related or not. Destroy botting and you will also destroy RMT killing 2 birds with one stone.


While I agree that botting sucks, killing botting will not stop RMT. Not even close.

You have to realize that in some countries $20 USD is an awful lot of money. I used to live in a place where a family of four could live for a month on under $80. In places like that, you don't need bots. You can just hire people to play, and work them in shifts 24/7 and still make a handsome profit.

The only way to stop RMT completely would make to make a game that's not based on currency, but rather be earned by individual characters. Can't be done in EVE, for obvious reasons. But if you look at WoW, they morphed the game quite nicely around that. There's really no point in buying WoW gold any more, because there's really nothing you can spend it on, besides possibly some vanity stuff. All the best gear is bind on pickup and earned from raids or PvP - meaning it can't be sold or traded, it can only be earned by that character.

Heck, it seems Blizzard is heading the way of the RMT themselves, what with the real money auction house coming in Diablo 3. And if, god help us, they get away with this crap, you can bet your butt it'll show up in their next MMO. And if that is anything like WoW, we'll be up for another decade of clones doing the exact same RMT crap. *shudders* Best not to think about it.
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-04-18 15:46:25 UTC
Greg Valanti wrote:
Kreeia Dgore wrote:
I wonder how long did it take CCP to find out this system, since they are banning for it. Ideas?


There are a lot of data points within the account information, game logs, and internet connection information, which I assume they are able to cross reference with known RMT operations.


The archsin of crime is redundancy. Patterns of repetition can be sucessful scanned by detection programms operating on a merely statistic base.
Real Poison
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-04-18 15:51:36 UTC
I don't find this very surprising. tbh what took them so long?
they've clearly have ppl capable of doing "datamining" and CCP has vast databases.

They know all the isk faucets in game (e.g. mining, ratting) that create isk.
And there are market transactions which are easily trackable.
Datamine for massive increase in isk/asset value that has no trackable source.
After a while they'll surely removed the most false positives and turnded their findings into program code for better datamining.
At some point they should be pretty sure how to identify "illegal" isk suddenly appearing.

Now the hardest part to seperate illegal RMT transactions is prolly suicide ganking (probably not very efficient) and scams (especially scams involving supercapitals).

But thanks for posting. I enjoy reading stories about ppl getting punished for their RMT sins.
Please keep up swinging the banhammers CCP! Lol
Zag'mar Jurkar
Muffin Mining Militia
#27 - 2012-04-18 16:16:42 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
I see RMT as a slight problem as they use bots but botting is by far the biggest scourge whether it's RMT related or not. Destroy botting and you will also destroy RMT killing 2 birds with one stone.


While I agree that botting sucks, killing botting will not stop RMT. Not even close.

You have to realize that in some countries $20 USD is an awful lot of money. I used to live in a place where a family of four could live for a month on under $80. In places like that, you don't need bots. You can just hire people to play, and work them in shifts 24/7 and still make a handsome profit.

The only way to stop RMT completely would make to make a game that's not based on currency, but rather be earned by individual characters. Can't be done in EVE, for obvious reasons. But if you look at WoW, they morphed the game quite nicely around that. There's really no point in buying WoW gold any more, because there's really nothing you can spend it on, besides possibly some vanity stuff. All the best gear is bind on pickup and earned from raids or PvP - meaning it can't be sold or traded, it can only be earned by that character.

Heck, it seems Blizzard is heading the way of the RMT themselves, what with the real money auction house coming in Diablo 3. And if, god help us, they get away with this crap, you can bet your butt it'll show up in their next MMO. And if that is anything like WoW, we'll be up for another decade of clones doing the exact same RMT crap. *shudders* Best not to think about it.


Not trying to derail the thread, but at the defense of D3's real money auction house, D2Jsp would have taken the lead there and doing it a way that is not illegal since you trade it for "forum gold".

Back on topic, that was a nice read OP. Sounds like a lot of trouble just for some extra isks you could have made yourself while doing it :/.
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-04-18 16:43:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyshonuba
Real Poison wrote:


.....
CCP knows all the isk faucets in game (e.g. mining, ratting) that create isk.
And there are market transactions which are easily trackable.
Datamine for massive increase in isk/asset value that has no trackable source.
After a while they'll surely removed the most false positives and turnded their findings into program code for better datamining.
At some point they should be pretty sure how to identify "illegal" isk suddenly appearing.

.......
I don't find this very surprising. tbh what took them so long?
they've clearly have ppl capable of doing "datamining" and CCP has vast databases.



Its expensive. Technical educated employees hunting down cheaters who pay about 15 $ a month ... or maybe even less. Once a GM personally checks a specific account RMT is surely revealed in the most cases .

The "real" battelfront lies where the detection programms are working... scanning mutiple accounts for suspicious signs and flagging them afterwards for futher GM- investigation

In this case the player repeatedly made 1day.-old, then biomassed boblikesyou33-alts, which all temporary had a high ISK wallet. Thats probaply the reason why his acount(s) got flagged by those detection programms.
Gorki Andropov
I Dn't Knw Wht You Wnt Bt I Cn't Gve It Anymre
#29 - 2012-04-18 18:27:58 UTC
Aina Sasaki wrote:
Nub Sauce wrote:
All that effort put into breaking the rules without getting caught could have been put into some trading and had a similar result without the banning/wallet death.

Especially all that creativity.


Agreed, which is why I say that scamming or cheating in general is pointless. If you are actually clever enough to come up with a complex plan to screw someone, you should be just as capable of making a legitimate plan as well. And in the end... the honest types always make more than the cheaters do in the long run.



With one exception: the cheaters are making real life money which has value out of the game (and can thus afford to repeat their actions ad infinitum), whereas the 'good guys' are just left with a bunch of worthless space pixels that are only around until the end of EVE (which as we know, is coming soon).
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#30 - 2012-04-19 03:03:23 UTC
Dear OP,

First and foremost, I like to congratulate you for taking the first step in weening yourself from the RMT habit. I also want to congratulate you in taking the second step for coming out here in the open to admit your own wrong doing. Finally, I like to thank you for revealing this information to the public so that those around here who make a living hunting bot/RMT users will be able to adapt their skills to precisely hunting their targets that ruin our economy and gameplay. Of course, as you pointed out, that wasn't your main reason, but to warn others to stay away from RMT rings even if they are tempted.

If there is one thing I ever like to see in a bot/RMT user, besides the obvious crash-n-burn rant I make towards them, is that I like to see them admit to their own mistakes in public for it takes a lot of willpower to come out like how you did, let alone reveal critical information that CCP and capsuleers could use in taking down RMT rings. For that, you have my respect for you have taken the steps to reform yourself and pay back what you owe in terms of social and ethical responsibility.

I like to extend a request to all members of this forums to please use this thread to teach newcomers the price players pay for cheating around here. In Eve Online, everything has consequences and every decision we make will influence others one way or the other and no one is exempt from that.

I also like to extend a request to all bot hunters out there to utilize this information so that they can be more effective in hunting down their targets. I'm pretty certain that from now on, every shuttle that comes out of any hub in high-sec will quickly get a lot of attention after this post.

Adapt or Die
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-04-19 06:10:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyshonuba
He wont become a better player now that he experienced the consequences of cheating. Placing the fear (of account banning) in peoples hearts doesn't help that much. I understand that it's tempting for ambitious gamers with a low real life budget to get illegal plexes for less then the half of the legal ones. What helps is....

1. Devotion to "Fair Play" ..... because RMT-players get it for half the price compared to legal players.

2. Striving for quality gaming .... because with RMT-money you cut the gaming companies profit and therefore their ability to maintain qualitative gaming services.

Personally i am a "lazy" guy and i dont enjoy learning new gaming rules when i try out a new game. Thats why i like to stick with long term motivating games.
There are already enough "cheap" game designers on the software market whose products may draw peoples attention for about 3-4 weeks ..... at most.
My advice to players like him is, "dont play too cheap". Dont waste money on games that end up as 10$ bargain sales in less then a year. And do not force a company like CCP to devellop in same direction as it would ruin the fun in Eve online

clixor wrote:


And props for OP for 'coming out', there should be a RMT-anomynous group :)



rolf Big smile
Real Poison
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-04-19 06:26:20 UTC
Kyshonuba wrote:

Its expensive. Technical educated employees hunting down cheaters who pay about 15 $ a month ... or maybe even less. Once a GM personally checks a specific account RMT is surely revealed in the most cases .

The "real" battelfront lies where the detection programms are working... scanning mutiple accounts for suspicious signs and flagging them afterwards for futher GM- investigation

In this case the player repeatedly made 1day.-old, then biomassed boblikesyou33-alts, which all temporary had a high ISK wallet. Thats probaply the reason why his acount(s) got flagged by those detection programms.


Expensive? they don't need hordes of those experts. Since they also funding their own economics expert just to monitor the health of the ingame economy such a datamining expert is the natural addition since the illegal isk market always threatens the market for the whole playerbase.

And really? If they haven't long implemented routines that make transfers/drops to throwaway alts nothing more than a few extra lines in the database that matters absolutely nothing in the process than they'd never find anyone. So that became imaginary protection long ago.

The concept is like an email spam filter on a mailserver, once you got the bulk of rulesets defined it's going to run automatic. But you still need to invest some daily monitoring to tweak and react to counter the newest tricks.
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-04-19 07:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyshonuba
Real Poison wrote:


The concept is like an email spam filter on a mailserver, once you got the bulk of rulesets defined it's going to run automatic. But you still need to invest some daily monitoring to tweak and react to counter the newest tricks.


Its a data(bank) inquiry accomplished by a programm of your choice... your not scanning exterior traffic like a spam (or a bot) filter does.
But depending on the complexity of the inquiry (ruleset) those scanns may need a loot of cpu-power. I heard that the diabolo II "ruststorm" caused quite some lack on the blizzard gaming servers.
clixor
Celluloid Gurus
#34 - 2012-04-19 09:59:55 UTC
Kyshonuba wrote:
Real Poison wrote:


The concept is like an email spam filter on a mailserver, once you got the bulk of rulesets defined it's going to run automatic. But you still need to invest some daily monitoring to tweak and react to counter the newest tricks.


Its a data(bank) inquiry accomplished by a programm of your choice... your not scanning exterior traffic like a spam (or a bot) filter does.
But depending on the complexity of the inquiry (ruleset) those scanns may need a loot of cpu-power. I heard that the diabolo II "ruststorm" caused quite some lack on the blizzard gaming servers.


I may be not a software engineer, but i don't have the feeling this is in any way a technical issue, but more an organizational / resource issue. Sreegs said it himself, processes should be in place and it should not be incidental.

Furthermore, people like OP are caught because the RMTer is identified and all THEIR transactions are traced and so identifying the receivers.
Jupix
MuroBBS United
#35 - 2012-04-19 12:07:47 UTC
Former Scumbag wrote:

7) I would fleet up with my RMTer alt then have the shuttle with billions of RMT warp to my main.

8) Then the RMTer would leave the shuttle, leave fleet, and my main would board the shuttle and dock it.


This is probably what got your main banned.

I don't think there's any way to transfer considerable wealth in this game without leaving a trace.

Also, I fail !
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#36 - 2012-04-19 12:53:17 UTC
Jupix wrote:
Former Scumbag wrote:

7) I would fleet up with my RMTer alt then have the shuttle with billions of RMT warp to my main.

8) Then the RMTer would leave the shuttle, leave fleet, and my main would board the shuttle and dock it.


This is probably what got your main banned.

I don't think there's any way to transfer considerable wealth in this game without leaving a trace.


Abso-*******-lutely right.

One of the biggest and commonly-seen assumptions from RMT runners and clients is that large amounts of wealth can be hidden in game if you avoid contracts, trade windows, buy-sell orders, etc. and stick to ship swapping instead or whatever method they think hides the transaction.

The problem with this assumption is because it is what it is: an assumption. They don't know what method is not traceable in game but the fact of the matter is that everything in the server is traced. A ship being swapped in the middle of space in a safespot from an unassociated alt to another still has data attached to it such as where it is, what's in its cargohold, who is piloting the ship, what modules are attached, etc. Even biomassing the alt still leaves a trace because the system has to maintain consistency as to what happened and how.

It's like bookkeeping: Debits must always equal credits and all vendor/client records must be kept even if the vendor or client are no longer associated with the business and all financial statements and payments to vendors and payments from clients must be reported to the government. I have worked in bookkeeping for years and have learned from the mistakes of others that circumventing the system is practically impossible without being discovered.

Adapt or Die
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#37 - 2012-04-19 15:34:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Eddie Laydon wrote:
Well buying PLEX/RMT are all different forms of 'cheating', the difference is one is controlled by CCP and the other one is not

Imho spending real money on isk is a bit pathetic, not to mention it takes the fun out of the game. If you cant earn enough money the 'normal' way, then perhaps you're not smart enough for this game.

Or maybe they just have real life priorities to worry about and are far more limited for the time they can actually get in game to play. These players with real jobs and know where their priorities should be generally are far better off spending a few extra bucks per month on PLEX to sell to pay for their PVP activity than to play 23/7 and stroking their E-PEEN all day long

Really what is the difference in paying for 4 accounts per month to max out in game income and support PVP activity on 1 account, or paying for 1 account and buying 3 plex per month with the money saved on the other 3 accounts to support the same 1 PVP account. The later costs the same but eliminates all the work associated with the other 3 accounts. If you enjoy that activity all the power to you, but if not buying PLEx is a great alternative

With PLEX over 500 mil and costing $20 USD or less if you buy it on promotion, anyone who values their time at more than minimum wage is way further ahead buying PLEX

I am sure there are very few players if any who can consistently make 500 mil isk/hr. So if $20 of real money can get you 500 mil isk, even if you value your time at minimum wage (about $10/hr where I live) you would have to make 250 mil isk per hour in game to get the same value for your time.

I believe mining is still the lowest isk/hour activity in EVE and is up to about 20 mil/hr, it would take you over 12 hours of mining to make 250 mil isk which is only equal to about $10 real money (24 hours of game time to earn 1 PLEX). Since mining is very boring and most players would consider it work to support their EVE career. Would you really rather work for the equivalent of just over $1 per hour mining in game or spend $20 real money on a PLEX to save your self 24 hour of in game isk grinding.

Personally I only get to play 4 - 5 hours a week if I'm lucky, I rarely reach 24 hours game time in a month. Two young children at home taking up most of my free time. An extra $20 per month to spend that time doing what I want to do rather than grinding isk is well worth it.

If you are not smart enough to realize it is just a game perhaps you should not play video games at all.
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