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"New direction" = Incarna's hit massive production delays?

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mkint
#61 - 2011-09-28 17:19:46 UTC
Having Incarna around isn't bad per se. The execution was awful, yes. But, even complete and successfully implemented, it's only use is as a weak framework tying together yet more window interfaces. In a game where "internet spaceships is serious business" a 3D walking around interface has no justifiable way to directly affect spaceships, and business is more effectively done through window interfaces. I suppose they could turn it into a "bunch of people drinking at a bar not saying anything" simulator, which you can't do with just a window interface. In fact, the most common arguments FOR walking in stations is to be able to do stuff that has nothing to do with EVE (EVE being a game about spaceships, business, corporations and the full package.)

No, the reason people are upset with Incarna sucking so bad is that for :18 months: it was the excuse as to why we couldn't have devs fixing the stuff they broke with Dominion and Tyranis that have made 0.0 (and by extension much of the rest of the game) pointless. And now this revolutionary™ thing for EVE is... that mess.

And CCP has still not given any indication that they get it.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#62 - 2011-09-28 17:29:53 UTC
mkint wrote:
Having Incarna around isn't bad per se. The execution was awful, yes. But, even complete and successfully implemented, it's only use is as a weak framework tying together yet more window interfaces. In a game where "internet spaceships is serious business" a 3D walking around interface has no justifiable way to directly affect spaceships, and business is more effectively done through window interfaces. I suppose they could turn it into a "bunch of people drinking at a bar not saying anything" simulator, which you can't do with just a window interface. In fact, the most common arguments FOR walking in stations is to be able to do stuff that has nothing to do with EVE (EVE being a game about spaceships, business, corporations and the full package.)

No, the reason people are upset with Incarna sucking so bad is that for :18 months: it was the excuse as to why we couldn't have devs fixing the stuff they broke with Dominion and Tyranis that have made 0.0 (and by extension much of the rest of the game) pointless. And now this revolutionary™ thing for EVE is... that mess.

And CCP has still not given any indication that they get it.


I think development saw the first CQ as a field test but marketing called it Incarna 1.0. I do agree that implementation has taken a LOT more resources than they anticipated and did delay important work on the rest of EVE. In the end we didn't get Incarna, didn't get space based improvements and all we saw was that mess called the NeX.

I still want Incarna, still want improvements to spaceships. However, I'm waiting for Winter Plans 2.0 before passing judgement on them "getting it." Those are coming soon, right guys? Hello?

_ _
MollyPuss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2011-09-28 17:49:57 UTC
I'd like to know, is dust using the same gfx engine as incarna? If so would playstation hardware handle 100's of players running around in the dust game?
Forum Bug
Doomheim
#64 - 2011-09-28 18:06:27 UTC
Incarna needs to be put on ICE, CCP need to rethink what it is that is important to the players as they seem to have lost touch. The players do need to step back and give CCP time to do this or we are going to just move along form one disaster to another. CCP could aid this by providing the player base with a clear commitment to the game that is EVE and an outline of the way forward for the next 12 months.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#65 - 2011-09-28 18:32:54 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
I too have gotten the distinct feeling that the enthusiasm for Incarna that CCP was shoving down our throats just 3 months ago is now waning.


Quote:
they developed what they needed to developed in order to facilitate the development of WoD


Everyone's memory seems to be pretty short - Incarna was begged for by players for years, and by the time they got to it, everyone started complaining it was a waste of time and they wanted mawr spaceships. But player demand for "walking in stations" existed long before WoD was announced. A search of the old forums validates this easily.....



Hans

I think many people thought incarna would make decent expansion - as in 6 months and we get avatars that walk around. Typical expansion taking up 6 months time - sure no problem.

But as soon as they announced that walking in stations is going to put all of eve on hold for 18 months, there was plenty of outrage.

Go ahead and see the boards after the june 2010 minutes were released. You will see posters who correctly foretold that this meant that CCP was effectively abandoning eve for about 2 years.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
LJB
Dissonance Corp
#66 - 2011-09-28 18:52:09 UTC  |  Edited by: LJB
Quote:
Now, having said that, are we getting rid of Incarna? No. But to say more on is not something that I can do. Why? Because that is the job of the Senior Producer; Zulu will be announcing very soon and in a bit more detail on what is coming next .


Theres that "soon" again......

hmmmmm

LJB
Astrid Skjerna
Doomheim
#67 - 2011-09-28 19:05:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Astrid Skjerna
I'm relatively new to EVE, but I wanted to step in and (attempt to) raise a few points:

Jada Maroo wrote:
According to CCP, work started on that CQ in January. From January to Incarna's release, the art and coding combined seemed to had taken an enormous amount of time for such a small amount of content.



First of all, I'd like to say that I was amazed to discover that people think the design process is a smooth, quick one-step process. The reality, unfortunately, is that it's anything but.

WiS did take an awfully long time, but When you look 'under the hood', it's a lot easier to understand the 'why' of it all:

1) CCP had to redesign the character creation system which means they had to build, rig and test dozens of 3D models, textures and animations. They also designed/textured/built/tested a 3D environment for us to walk in, re-record most of Aura's dialogue, created an entirely fresh new-player experience, and designed/tested/secured the NeX. Plus, they had to bug-test and sanity-check the whole thing.

It's a relatively small amount of content to us Capsuleers, but the amount of work that goes into a project like Incarna on the back-end is immense.

Blueburt wrote:
I'm sure the establishments may be ready to go. But not a lot of peoples computer's can run 100+ character models. Including their own maybe?



Quite an accurate assessment. My computer (which, for the record, is a relatively new quad-core with 8 gigs of RAM) can barely handle the Captain's Quarters at full settings. Trying to get dozens, perhaps hundreds, of highly-detailed avatars into an equally-detailed, well-lit space (such as the much-promised station interiors) without severely impacting a player's system resources is a daunting task.

Officer Spawn wrote:

'Very Soon' and 'a bit more detail' are exactly the vague statements that have been driving people crazy for months now. How hard is it to for him give a date on for the next blog post ?

I'm quite sure in two weeks we'll know nothing more concrete then we do now on what we have to look forward to.




'Very soon' and 'in more detail' are annoying to hear over and over, yes. The rationale behind their use is two-fold:

A) The person you're speaking to may not have the authority to release any more information than they've already given out. If CCP were to announce a new feature, then retract the announcement six months later with an 'Oops, we're not actually going to do it!', it would annoy the lot of us and make CCP look indecisive, and even worse, incompetent.

B) CCP may not have more detail to release yet. Really, which would you prefer: hearing CCP say 'Okay, these are some new ship designs for [2011/2012], and here's a preview', or having them release pictures of an Unidentifiable Blue Knobbly Thing that they just started working on yesterday?

In conclusion:

Honestly, folks, every company has its hiccups and its flops. Yes, it's frustrating to be kept out of the loop -- nobody likes that -- but (in the words of Tom Hanks in Apollo 13):

Quote:
All right, there's a thousand things that have to happen in order. We are on number....eight. You're taking about number 692.


As for more communication between CCP and the playerbase -- yes, I hear you on that, and I agree. Frankly, though, I place continued product development on a higher priority than 'Go on the forums and tell the players we've changed the color of the curtains in the Captain's Quarters'.
Khira Kitamatsu
#68 - 2011-09-28 19:25:53 UTC
CCP Fallout wrote:
I'd like to correct a bit of misinfo in this line, "This new direction that CCP talks about is really only a week old. Meaning before that they were still chugging along full force in the old direction."

Not at all. This has been in the works for quite some time. In fact, if you review my older posts on these forums, you'll see that I've said pretty much that we are working out what is coming next. It was not my place to say, however, that we were not happy with the direction we had decided on when we did our release planning. :D

I'm not really comfortable with saying "old direction|new direction," especially in the context that you use it in. The teams working on Incarna delivered the one CQ they were required to deliver and continued working on the remainders as expected. Those CQs will go onto Singularity soon, possibly as early as next week, although I've not been given a solid date yet.

Here's how it all went down, as I saw it from my home office here in Queens, in laymans terms (no marketing speak from me, I know how you guys hate that :)).

We had our release planning after the summer holidays as expected. A lot of good material came from that, however, a number of people were not completely satisfied with what was decided on. We also know, very, very well, how unhappy you guys are with the direction EVE has been taking, and as Zulu said in his blog and later in the thread, we wanted to put an increased focus on FiS and give you guys something to be excited about.

Now, having said that, are we getting rid of Incarna? No. But to say more on is not something that I can do. Why? Because that is the job of the Senior Producer; Zulu will be announcing very soon and in a bit more detail on what is coming next.


I wish you guys would hurry up and post this blog, because depending on what it says will determine if I keep playing your game or not. I am tired of wasting money on a game that seems to be continually neglected by its creators - in favor of making a virtual catwalk instead of working on their game.

Ponies!  We need more ponies!
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#69 - 2011-09-28 19:29:04 UTC
CSM members have tweeted that they just left a meeting with CCP Zulu and things look promising. Now we just wait for the official dev blog to be written and translated. A few days maybe?

_ _
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#70 - 2011-09-28 19:47:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Seleene wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me, but to be honest, I don't care if it means that they put Second Life in Space on the back-burner and start working on proper Eve again


What boggles the mind is why the only CQ they released so far is the slum-like Minmatar one. Not very sci-fi at all tbh. Smile


Well, I can tell you. Minmatarr CQ is very like the average setting for the old game Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines. That was my first impression and so far it stands. Be noted that Vampire: the Masquerade and VTM: Bloodlines where both built upon the WoD lore and set of rules, so i pretty much expect WoD online to be kinda that games: Dark, gritty, slumish.

So It's like if CCP needed *something* to show to *some* investors and said "well, this is a kind of a demo of a kind of technology we are kind of developing for WoD online..."


PS: here you have an instance of what I am talking about:

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines character & setting, AKA a Gallente gal in a Minmatarr hotel room circa 2004...
matarkhan
ConHugeCo
Rusty Stargazers
#71 - 2011-09-28 20:21:38 UTC
Sure, sure, sure, but you all are forgetting.....


FONTS!!!

Woohoo!

I don't get the whole debate on this, it's very simple, explained with one sentence:

WE DON'T PAY MONEY TO HANG OUT IN STATIONS.
Bloody Wench
#72 - 2011-09-28 23:46:50 UTC
Crasniya wrote:
I still don't grasp why people don't understand the concept that "newer games require newer computers", and that MMOs effectively become a new game, requirements-wise, every expansion.

If your computer didn't come retail with Windows Vista, it shouldn't be able to play games more intensive than solitaire. If your computer didn't come retail with Windows 7, you probably need to look at upgrading in the near future, as a PC gamer.

This is why console gaming is more popular, because everything runs to a standard, which is generally cheaper. PC gamers have to, and should be expected to, maintain a hardware set that is at least around 80% of the top available specs at the time. Yes, MMOs tend to curve a bit below that specs-wise, but I hear someone talking about a 512 MB graphics card down here.

I had 1 GB on my graphics card three years ago. You should not be gaming with less than that. If you wanted a hard cut-off, nobody with a computer more than four years old should expect to play modern games.



If you're buying prebuilt PC's with OS preloaded:

You should pack it up in the box it came it and take it back to the store and tell them you want a refund. When they ask why, you tell them that you're too stupid to own a computer.

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack
Latex Lover
Dreams Unlimited
#73 - 2011-09-29 00:29:24 UTC
CCP Fallout wrote:
I'd like to correct a bit of misinfo in this line, "This new direction that CCP talks about is really only a week old. Meaning before that they were still chugging along full force in the old direction."

Not at all. This has been in the works for quite some time. In fact, if you review my older posts on these forums, you'll see that I've said pretty much that we are working out what is coming next. It was not my place to say, however, that we were not happy with the direction we had decided on when we did our release planning. :D

I'm not really comfortable with saying "old direction|new direction," especially in the context that you use it in. The teams working on Incarna delivered the one CQ they were required to deliver and continued working on the remainders as expected. Those CQs will go onto Singularity soon, possibly as early as next week, although I've not been given a solid date yet.

Here's how it all went down, as I saw it from my home office here in Queens, in laymans terms (no marketing speak from me, I know how you guys hate that :)).

We had our release planning after the summer holidays as expected. A lot of good material came from that, however, a number of people were not completely satisfied with what was decided on. We also know, very, very well, how unhappy you guys are with the direction EVE has been taking, and as Zulu said in his blog and later in the thread, we wanted to put an increased focus on FiS and give you guys something to be excited about.

Now, having said that, are we getting rid of Incarna? No. But to say more on is not something that I can do. Why? Because that is the job of the Senior Producer; Zulu will be announcing very soon and in a bit more detail on what is coming next.


Quote:
We focus on what you do and not on what you say.


Fallout, we don't believe anything you or that knob-head Zulu say anymore.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2011-09-29 00:59:53 UTC
Holy One wrote:
Refreshingly frank disclosure there bro. From you that's something to behold.

One thing that concerns me is the sheer technical implications of shared spaces - its frankly not feasible with current gen video cards is it? Especially not the glorified toasters many people play eve one. Which begs the question, when you designed Incarna, who did you design it for? You must have known your demographic hardware baseline was pretty low even for an mmo. And did you really think you could deliver 1200+ people on a promenade in Jita? Do they even make 'establishments' big enough for that? What's the client footprint going to be? 1gb, 2gb? lol

That will run on a 256mb gpu from circa 2009?

I am not convinced. Straight


As I stated in a previous post, I believe what CCP is developing is dependent upon consumer hardware catching up to the demands. I'm thinking +5 years. So, I believe you're absolutely correct.

Don't ban me, bro!
Gryd
Einheit X-6
#75 - 2011-10-02 03:23:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Gryd
CCP Fallout wrote:

Here's how it all went down, as I saw it from my home office here in Queens, in laymans terms (no marketing speak from me, I know how you guys hate that :)).


ShockedShockedShocked
in layments terms (not the truth from me, i know how you guys hate that) i think what "the guys" really hate, is people that earn their money using marketing speak.
the rest of your post is,by the way, soothing blahblah (wait... wouldnt that be... marketing speak?)Ugh
Apollo-Moor
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2011-10-02 10:34:09 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me, but to be honest, I don't care if it means that they put Second Life in Space on the back-burner and start working on proper Eve again


What boggles the mind is why the only CQ they released so far is the slum-like Minmatar one. Not very sci-fi at all tbh. Smile


Meaning it gets a retouch because the other ones smash it so hard, Gallente and Amarrian say it all,, Caldari as well but not as much..
Jee'ta
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2011-10-02 10:42:28 UTC
Crasniya wrote:
I still don't grasp why people don't understand the concept that "newer games require newer computers", and that MMOs effectively become a new game, requirements-wise, every expansion.


It's because CCP made it mandatory. If they'd had a button for "exit pod" then people who hated CQ or couldn't run it would not have cared. And since it adds zero gameplay both those groups could have happily continued enjoying Eve online. It's the same for an expansion where generally you get to opt in by choosing to purchase and install it.

I could care less about CQ, I know most of the technology is borrowed from WoD/Dust, but it doesn't excuse their lack of any progress on the core Eve gameplay.
Jashmyne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2011-10-02 11:13:02 UTC
MollyPuss wrote:
I'd like to know, is dust using the same gfx engine as incarna? If so would playstation hardware handle 100's of players running around in the dust game?

Dust will use the unreal engine.
Gypsy RoseLee
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2011-10-02 13:03:41 UTC
Eve is dead for me. Of my three accounts, one ran out of time yesterday and I have put it on the shelf. In about two weeks I'm going have to decide if I want to keep training at least one account with plex (and I could for a very long time with the bankroll I have) or to shelf the last two accounts. I'm leaning towards letting both expire based upon CCP's actions, because I'm sure as hell not listening to the words they are flinging around after Hilmar's email:

CCP CEO Hilmar wrote:
Currently we are seeing very predictable feedback on what we are doing. Having the perspective of having done this for a decade, I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say.


CCP and their diverting of all their efforts into two other games I have no interest in is reflected in the quality of the product we are playing at this moment. The last couple expansions have largely been about development of assets and technology they intend to use in those other two games.

My subscription is the way I show support for a developer and the quality of the product they provide. With that in mind, how anyone in good conscience can send even one dime towards CCP with the game in the state that it is in right now is bewildering. Especially when we know that that dime is going towards a twighlightish vampire MMO or fail-before-launch console shooter on the PS3 platform that half the Eve players don't even own to play it on.
Astrid Skjerna
Doomheim
#80 - 2011-10-03 01:53:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Astrid Skjerna
Gypsy RoseLee wrote:


My subscription is the way I show support for a developer and the quality of the product they provide. With that in mind, how anyone in good conscience can send even one dime towards CCP with the game in the state that it is in right now is bewildering.


And yet....you're still here.

Seriously, though -- give them some slack. Incarna was a helluva lot of work, and while EVE might be a testbed for a new product, at least they aren't cutting EVE's team back like some of the other MMOs eventually do. Besides which, by testing new tech *here*, they're making sure they can deliver what they promise with Dust 415 *and* adding to EVE as a whole.

I'm not defending potentially-disasterous business decisions -- but I *am* saying that we need to be patient, and let CCP find the balance it's seeking right now.

Rees Noturana wrote:
I think development saw the first CQ as a field test but marketing called it Incarna 1.0.


I agree -- the first CQ feels like a field test. It's easier to remove or 'dummy out' one item that isn't working than roll back a dozen changes and client updates. Now that they've tested one single environment, and they know it works without killing the cluster and causing hardware problems client-side, they can feel a bit more confident that the other Captain's Quarters modules aren't going to put too much of a strain on the system.