Ships & Modules

Lasers are something like 2nd-3rd best weapon overall out of 5 (hybrids/projectiles/missiles/drones/lasers) for PVP, so that certainly isn't bad.
Not particularly worth being unhappy about. Besides in a few specific situations it can be No.1 weapon type.
Too bad it's not head of the class this round, but its not the worst of the class.

However, outside blood/sansha, lasers are the worst weapon for PVE except for blasters, and that IS bad.

So what you're saying is you want them to be the best in everything?

And Arty Abaddon is related to this thread how exactly?

What is this Black legion hating on the Muninn?

I just put the example forward because the Muninn compares slightly better to the Zealot in its role or use in fleets.

If people are looking for the Amarr counterpart to the Vaga - you should look at the Sac.

Of course not in terms of it being a skirmisher since being a brawler it's quit the opposite, but at least it compares in terms of use as in solo/very small gangs.

Anyway - I agree they all compare quite badly.

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Not a reply to your post anymore

However, the problem I see here with ship comparisons often is the fact that many people usually put some hypothetical 1 on 1 scenario forward that will never happen on TQ and calculate DPS based on that - maybe falloff if they have EFT warrioring at IV and can do DPS graphs without transversal.

If they check for DPS AUC under various conditions, build a mean from that, include resists, drone damage and travel times they're at lvl V.

Good - but they're still completely ignoring the way ships are typically used or any 'rules of engagement'.

Simple example:

Vaga meets Zealot (typical EFT warrior engagement) -> Vaga may try its luck and can kill the Zealot if the Zealot is poorly skilled or doesn't know how to use his ship. If the opposte is the case, he should still make it out as soon as he sees things go bad -> either he gets a kill or he runs.
Two Zealots meet a Vaga -> Vaga runs
Two Vagas meet a Zealot -> Zealot dies

100% efficiency for Vagas. Of course this is a rather simplified example but it's the reason why I claim that good balance involves face-melting DPS from zealots and feeble DPS from Vagas, simply because Vagas dictate the fight and can disengage at will.

Maybe it's just me being primarily a strategy game player and regarding Eve as an RTS where you control very few units (or quite a lot with varying AI if you're the FC ;)).

Vagas are horse-archers.

Yeah no complaining about laser ammo. Go to hybrid t2 ammo and then we'll talk. 2500 isk a pop.

When I do comparisons I tend to make the fights unrealistic on purpose; I give advantages to one side that they would almost never see, so that when that side STILL comes out worse than the supposed underdog, there can be no doubt that said supposed underdog isn't really an underdog.


Believe it or not I agree entirely. The problem is this:
People seem to have it in their heads that the only way to measure how good a ship is is by looking at:
-How many people fly it
-The K/D ratios of people that do.
And that's just flat out wrong, no matter how you look at it. This problem gets even worse, because most people get the idea in their head that minmatar are overpowered from those 2 points, and then try to find logical arguments to prove WHY they're overpowered that don't revolve around killboards. Once you get past the ability to pick fights (which will always be doable, unless all ships are given identical speeds/cloaking rules/force projection) minmatar really don't have much going for them.

Autocannons are not overpowered, nor are (most) minmatar ships, they simply have the ability to run more easily from bad engagements, which is why people like them (because not getting killed is more important than getting kills, and we have killboards to thank for that). Once you look past minmatar's ability to run, they are literally the worst race in the game for pvp, and no, capless, variable damage type weapons don't change that.

TBH I think you misinterpreted the post I made earlier, as its point was not to show that zealots are overpowered, but that they have a plethora of advantages over a vagabond, whose only real noteworthy ability is the ability to run away. There's nothing wrong with that, and the vaga isn't underpowered at all, but the point is if you focus solely on K/D ratios, the vaga LOOKS much more impressive than it actually is.

Maybe I'm coming out of left field here, but the real problem I have with lasers is pve versatility. I understand every weapon system has its benefits and drawbacks, but apart from that, every weapon system seems to be tailored to the rats in their races' starting areas. Kinetic missiles hurt guristas, lasers hurt blood, kin/therm hybrids hurt serp, explosive min hurt angels.

The problem is when pilots branch out from this. Minmatar has access to pretty much all damage types, some shoot worse than others, but they can fit a damage type for every situation. Ditto goes for Caldari. Gallente only shoot Kin/Therm, but those are damage types that tend to do the best general damage, and two rat types are weak against those types anyway. Plus they get the best drone ships, and those can omni damage.

Then you have lasers.... EM/Therm with a big emphasis on EM. That will hurt... blood/sansha. And done. Even if you can get your thermal damage to a decent %, you are nerfing range to do so, and 50% of your damage is still suck EM. Which means to rat well, you are relegated to Amarr space, or you have to nerf range into the ground and still be outclassed by other people because of the EM damage you can't get rid of.

I'm not saying lasers CAN'T rat in other space, I'm just saying that other weapons can make the adjustment on their respective races much less painful. I love Amarr ships, but this one element always leads any char I make to end up flying something else.

I'm sure someone will comment about LOLPVE, but hey, it matters. It makes $$. I don't like the fact that Amarr essentially are well behind the other three races in damage versatility.

TLDR: Lasers suck because you are pigeonholed to EM damage.

Didn't know shield tank + Legion was possible?

With lasers you have the ability to always be in optimal range. Unless they attack from outside your maximum effective range or your minimum effective you will be able to deal maximum damage all the time.