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Lasers, do they suck ****? Are they in the same category as blasters before their buff?
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Cambarus

The Baros Syndicate

Likes received: 358

#41 - 2012-04-16 17:39:45 UTC

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Cambarus wrote:

If you have a hard time hitting a vagabond with a zealot, you're doing something wrong.

90% EM resist...
MWD'ing Vaga would cause some tracking issues.

That number was AFTER resists, using a weighted average (vaga has most of its ehp in shields, which have a much lower resist to em than armor), and a MWDing vaga is either:
At 10-25km, taking full damage from pulses even with scorch because of range
Under 10km, in which case the vaga is never going to maintain an even moderately dangerous orbit because of accel/decel times, not to mention the possibility for webs/scrams.

In either case, a vaga cant run its MWD for very long anyway so it's a moot point.

Cipher Jones

The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars

Likes received: 1,292

#42 - 2012-04-16 18:18:52 UTC

Wu Jiaqiu wrote:

Title.

From what I understand, EVE is very rock,scissors, papery.

Minmatar has speed and tracking while most of them are shield tanked right?
Gallente is slow, but makes up for it in sheer DPS.
Caldari ships have the best ECM, and their missiles do not rely on turret tracking.
Amarr has fast ammo swaps so they can do optimal damage at any range.

So lasers should be a Nanocane or Vagabonds nightmare right?

Life is a lot like rock scissors paper.

Tyson beats Bowe, Bowe beats Hollyfield, Hollyfield beats Tyson.

Amarr ships can fit weapons systems that have ridiculous power requirements, thats their 'thing".

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Kismesis 144
Katalci Kismesis Likes received: 144	#43 - 2012-04-16 20:36:44 UTC \| Edited by: Katalci Jorma Morkkis wrote: MWD'ing Vaga would cause some tracking issues. Only for the vagabond.

Likely Suspects 2
Terazuk Likely Suspects Likes received: 2	#44 - 2012-04-16 21:17:23 UTC Of course nothing to stop the Vaga having a go anyway, if the Zealot turns out to be too hurty or just not squishy enough, Vaga can just disengage.

Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 77
Barbie D0ll Imperial Academy Amarr Empire Likes received: 77	#45 - 2012-04-16 21:55:50 UTC vaga has a spare high for a neut, vaga doesn't need cap to use weapons, secondly, the vaga would be armor tanking against lasers if it knew it was going against lasers

Cambarus

The Baros Syndicate

Likes received: 358

#46 - 2012-04-16 22:28:07 UTC | Edited by: Cambarus

Barbie D0ll wrote:

vaga has a spare high for a neut, vaga doesn't need cap to use weapons, secondly, the vaga would be armor tanking against lasers if it knew it was going against lasers

Vaga isn't cap stable with a neut running, and you'd have to be INSANE to think that burning in close with a vaga to neut is a good idea. Add to that the fact that as soon as you get more than one person on each side of the fight,neuts start to matter less and less. It's the same problem blasters have in anything other than solo or very small gang use.

As for the armor tanking vaga thing... Lol

Come on, really? If people want to counter zealots, they'll bring drakes, maybe swapping an invuln for an em hardener if they want to come off as a REALLY hard counter. A vaga only has 5 lowslots, and little PG. If it's armor tanked, it's going to have so little DPS it will be just as bad at killing zealots as the shield tanked version.

EDIT: I went and ran the numbers on that as well:
Vaga with an 800mm plate (which it can juuuust barely fit, 1600 is just not going to happen, ever.) 2 eanms and 2 trimarks will have about 64k EHP while being shot at by a zealot (so using em/therm resists for this)
A zealot will have 50k EHP when being shot at by phased plasma (its weakest resist profile)

The vaga does ~380 DPS, the zealot does ~500.
Vaga will chew through the zealots EHP in 132 seconds
Zealot will chew through the vagas EHP in 128 seconds.
This means that even fitting your vaga to brawl in armor (terrible, terrible idea though it may be) so that you can exploit the resists you get will STILL end up with less DPS/EHP on the field then a standard fit zealot, even assuming the fight happens at 1.5km (the optimal on non-TE'd medium autocannons)

Terazuk wrote:

Of course nothing to stop the Vaga having a go anyway, if the Zealot turns out to be too hurty or just not squishy enough, Vaga can just disengage.

Which is why most people will fly minmatar no matter what CCP does. People are so much more afraid of losing ships than they are of losing kills that the ability to actually fight is waaaayyyy less important than the ability to run away for smaller gangs. I'd suggest looking up the KBs of people who regularly fly panthers. The fits they use are TERRIBLE at killing things(most will literally not fit any tank), but because it's so damn hard to actually CATCH one they have absurd K/D ratios.

School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 927
Ganthrithor School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State Likes received: 927	#47 - 2012-04-16 22:35:41 UTC Lasers own face, you're ******* dumb.

Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 555
Mfume Apocal Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic Likes received: 555	#48 - 2012-04-17 00:43:41 UTC \| Edited by: Mfume Apocal 2 Jorma Morkkis wrote: Only if Minmatar pilot is stupid enough to use Exp/Kin ammo. You mean like Barrage? Quote: "Scorch destroys everything!" Or does it? Vaga: 75% EM resist (shield) 60% Thermic resist (shield) 90% EM resist (armor) 67,5% Thermic resist (armor) Total EHP to Scorch: 50k(ish) w/ a DC2. 40k(ish) w/o.

Dato Koppla

Spaghetti Militia

Likes received: 939

#49 - 2012-04-17 01:28:05 UTC

I'm fine with everything laser related because its strengths are useful in alot of situations (Instant ammo change, long optimal, cheap ammo, ease of using faction ammo, scorch is OP), even their weakness of high cap use/fitting isn't THAT bad as most good Amarr ships can fit what they want, and the ones that can't we have to pray get buffed in upcoming patch.

What I'm not okay with is the laser cap use bonus. I consider this the main sucky factor in lazorz, everyone else gets something useful, be it tracking, optimal, falloff, tank bonus etc but cap use bonus lets you...use your guns more? This is IMO one of the worst bonuses you can get on a combat ship, (except maybe Thoraxes MWD cap bonus lulz) Caldari missile range bonus on the weapon systems that has the most ridiculous range but is yet useless in PvP comes a close second in terms of racial fail bonuses. While Minmatar continues getting it's awesome tracking/falloff/tank bonuses almost always combined with a damage bonus.

Mfume Apocal

Brutor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 555

#50 - 2012-04-17 01:58:32 UTC | Edited by: Mfume Apocal

Dato Koppla wrote:

What I'm not okay with is the laser cap use bonus. I consider this the main sucky factor in lazorz, everyone else gets something useful, be it tracking, optimal, falloff, tank bonus etc but cap use bonus lets you...use your guns more?

Firing your weapons is pretty useful, IMO

Quote:

This is IMO one of the worst bonuses you can get on a combat ship, (except maybe Thoraxes MWD cap bonus lulz) Caldari missile range bonus on the weapon systems that has the most ridiculous range but is yet useless in PvP comes a close second in terms of racial fail bonuses. While Minmatar continues getting it's awesome tracking/falloff/tank bonuses almost always combined with a damage bonus.

-Two heatsink Zealot does 405 turret DPS with Scorch. Three gyro Vaga does 378 turret DPS with Barrage
-3 HS Harb does 601 DPS w/ IN MF, 3 HS Cane does 595 with RF EMP

etc. etc. point is the ships are relatively balanced, even if the bonuses aren't.

Dato Koppla

Spaghetti Militia

Likes received: 939

#51 - 2012-04-17 04:07:23 UTC

Mfume Apocal wrote:

Dato Koppla wrote:

Firing your weapons is pretty useful, IMO

Quote:

Yes firing your weapons is important, but most would consider that something ships should be able to do without giving up one of only 2 bonuses given to a ship.

You can't say that the ships are balanced on turret stats alone, the vaga gets a 25m3 drone bay so it gets an additional form of damage and is an entirely different beast from the Zealot, sure it can tank n gank more, but it will never catch a Vaga and a Vaga wouldn't engage a Zealot. The Cane gets 2 high slots that can be used for launchers for more dps or neuts while the Harbinger can barely fit anything in its additional high because of massive PG requirements on lazorz putting it at either a dps disadvantage or have its cap obliterated so it can't fire its guns.

Darthewok

Perkone

Caldari State

Likes received: 71

#52 - 2012-04-17 05:59:46 UTC

If you play EVE long enough, you will see CCP likes to have one ship/weapon/race the best and keep buffing/nerfing so the best changes every few years.
This is to stimulate cross-training, and break static status quo of ship choices.
At this time, projectiles has the crown, deal with it.
Ship rebalancing over the next 2 years will probably see some relative power shifts between weapons/races anyway.

Just cross-train, if you put all your training in only one weapon type you will be let down/nerfed sooner or later.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Lunkwill Khashour

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 208

#53 - 2012-04-17 06:25:43 UTC

Lost Greybeard wrote:

Lasers have some of the best overall range/speed/tracking combinations of all the gun types.

Lasertracking is a joke. For pulses, the highest laser tracking is always lower than the lowest tracking on any other turret type: gatling pulse vs 200ac, focused med vs heavy neutron, dual heavy pulse vs 800ac. While I agree that pulses deserve worse tracking due to better range, there should be an option to downgrade them to increase tracking to competitive levels.

Lost Greybeard wrote:

If you use them on an Amarr boat to mitigate the capacitor cost they are pretty awesome. Not as good on unbonused boats as projectile, of course, because of the cap dependence, but in their environment you don't **** with 'em.

Also not as good on boats with only a cap use bonus to lasers, of course, because of cap dependence. Moreover, even with cap bonus, they still require more cap than any other weapon type.


Mfume Apocal Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic Likes received: 555	#54 - 2012-04-17 06:41:38 UTC \| Edited by: Mfume Apocal Dato Koppla wrote: snip You complained that the cap usage bonus was "a waste" and led to less DPS or projection for Amarr ships. I pointed out that they get the same or better turret DPS as Minmatar ships. Stop moving the goalposts.

State War Academy Caldari State 455
Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 455	#55 - 2012-04-17 06:47:41 UTC Darthewok wrote: Just cross-train, if you put all your training in only one weapon type you will be let down/nerfed sooner or later. But but... then I would have to pay ridiculous amount of isk just to use my weapons. Or can we at least get that rof bonus off from Cane so I can keep ammo cost at moderate level, please.


Mfume Apocal Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic Likes received: 555	#56 - 2012-04-17 06:48:42 UTC Jorma Morkkis wrote: But but... then I would have to pay ridiculous amount of isk just to use my weapons. Or can we at least get that rof bonus off from Cane so I can keep ammo cost at moderate level, please. lol u crazy


Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 455	#57 - 2012-04-17 06:59:41 UTC Mfume Apocal wrote: lol u crazy Scorch M vs Barrage M price wise. It's not even remotely funny.

Armaggedon Inc. Shadow Cartel 51
Screenlag Armaggedon Inc. Shadow Cartel Likes received: 51	#58 - 2012-04-17 07:09:02 UTC Lasers work well all around. I have almost perfect railgun skills and I was impressed by meta 4 lasers when i ran incursions. Lasers are fine


Mfume Apocal Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic Likes received: 555	#59 - 2012-04-17 08:42:00 UTC Jorma Morkkis wrote: Mfume Apocal wrote: lol u crazy Scorch M vs Barrage M price wise. It's not even remotely funny. it's not even remotely worth mentioning unless you belt rat in highsec for isk.

Blue Canary Watch This 579
Danny John-Peter Blue Canary Watch This Likes received: 579	#60 - 2012-04-17 08:46:39 UTC Lasers are excellent tools in PVP, people who tell you otherwise are wrong. Zealots, Abaddons, Geddons, Retris, Apocs, Harbingers, Crusaders, Oracles are all good ships and all rely on lasers, there are also many others I cant think of. They have excellent damage projection, variable ranges, good DPS and are an all round extremely effective weapon system.