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3 Minmatar ships that just don't make sense

Author
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#1 - 2012-04-16 16:45:26 UTC
I've been out of the game for a few years and i'm back to find some nice changes. The auto-cannon buffs seem good without being OP and Minmatar are starting to see more shield orientated ships - i prefer armour minnie ships, but i understand the design philosophy.

With that in mind, there are 3 ships that haven't been changed despite being under-used for a number of years and that don't follow the design philosophy of the minmatar race.

The Claw
The Wolf
The Muninn


So here's why i think so:

Minmatar generally have relatively light/fast ships with similar number of mid and low slots. They have good power-grid, normally on par with Gallente but below amarr and boast the second highest CPU (behind caldari). Utility slots in either hi, mid or lo aren't uncommon and normally that 'flavour' module is what makes minmatar appeal.

Here's why i don't think these ships fit that:

The Claw
Has too much powergrid (40 base is FAR too much for a projectile boat) - i feel 35 would be more appropriate. CPU is too low by FAR. Should be around 150 base. Its weight is really high, should be around 1mil imo. Should have the 4-3-3 slot layout: The stiletto has the 3-4-3 for tackle heavy/shield mods, so having the combat ceptor have 4-3-3 makes sense since it still needs to fit tackle on its mids to fill the interceptor role, and having a balanced number of mid/low fits the minnie design philosophy.

Summary:
Slots: 4-2-4 > 4-3-3
PG: 40 > 35
CPU: 100-150
Mass: 1.126 > 1/1.05

The Wolf
Similar to the Claw in it's problems. Too much powergrid, CPU is too low and its slot layout makes no sense. Should be 5-3-4.

Summary:
Slots: 5-2-5 > 5-3-4
PG: 48 > 43
CPU: 135 > 150

The Muninn
This is another slot layout nightmare. It's a sniper boat with 2 un-bonused hi slots and only 3 mids. its powergrid and CPU are very generous, however it's hard to take advantage of this with it's current slot layout. That being said, it's drone bay is also too large.

Summary:
Slots: 7-3-5 > 6-4-5
Drone bay: 25 > 10/15

I'm not saying these ships are unflyable, but realistically (outside fitting oversized plates) these ships are relatively strong in potential but just need some tweaks to make them realistically viable.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#2 - 2012-04-16 17:14:36 UTC
Stop min/maxing them for solo PvP and you will find they all have viable roles.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Vito Antonio
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-04-16 17:36:45 UTC
Didn't wolf get buffed recentlyish along with other AFs?
Sovai Elaaren
KABS Deep Recon Unit
#4 - 2012-04-16 17:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Sovai Elaaren
I can't really comment on the Claw or Muninn as I haven't flown either of them, but for the wolf, I would disagree about the powergrid. On my 250 arty, 280 arty and plated brawling setups, I have just enough powergrid to fit everything. There are certainly some fits where there is a lot of PG left over, but I'm glad it doesn't have less.

It's slot layout is appropriate for a kiting ship, much like the slicer. MWD and long point, lots of lows for prop/hull upgrades and damage/tracking mods. While I would like it to have three mids as well for full tackle/brawling, I guess CCP has a different idea.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#5 - 2012-04-16 18:14:49 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Stop min/maxing them for solo PvP and you will find they all have viable roles.


That's not what im doing. The claw can be used for solo PVP as can the wolf, but neither of these ships are useful enough to be picked up over another races ship even in a gang situation.

And the muninn... well.... it needs that mid slot for tracking computers and sensor boosters. I thought that would be obvious as part of a sniper gang?
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#6 - 2012-04-16 18:15:27 UTC
Vito Antonio wrote:
Didn't wolf get buffed recentlyish along with other AFs?


It did, but it doesn't change how muddled up the layout is. Like i said, it isn't completely broken - it just isn't great at filling its role.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#7 - 2012-04-16 18:16:39 UTC
Sovai Elaaren wrote:
I can't really comment on the Claw or Muninn as I haven't flown either of them, but for the wolf, I would disagree about the powergrid. On my 250 arty, 280 arty and plated brawling setups, I have just enough powergrid to fit everything. There are certainly some fits where there is a lot of PG left over, but I'm glad it doesn't have less.

It's slot layout is appropriate for a kiting ship, much like the slicer. MWD and long point, lots of lows for prop/hull upgrades and damage/tracking mods. While I would like it to have three mids as well for full tackle/brawling, I guess CCP has a different idea.


The jaguar is made for arty's, the wolf is made for AC's. It is definitely the more'in your face' of the 2. I see no reason why it needs 5 lows and only 2 mids. It's basically an enyo but worse.
Sovai Elaaren
KABS Deep Recon Unit
#8 - 2012-04-16 18:37:16 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:

The jaguar is made for arty's, the wolf is made for AC's. It is definitely the more'in your face' of the 2. I see no reason why it needs 5 lows and only 2 mids. It's basically an enyo but worse.


Yeah, I know what you mean, between the speed and the bonuses, that's what I would think as well, the wolf is for brawling and the jag for kiting. And you can currently get some good brawling setups with the wolf but that slot layout is better for kiting.

A bit of a confused ship.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#9 - 2012-04-16 19:33:06 UTC
Sovai Elaaren wrote:

Yeah, I know what you mean, between the speed and the bonuses, that's what I would think as well, the wolf is for brawling and the jag for kiting. And you can currently get some good brawling setups with the wolf but that slot layout is better for kiting.

A bit of a confused ship.


Bingo.
Whitehound
#10 - 2012-04-16 19:50:52 UTC
All three are designed by Boundless Creation:

Boundless Creation's ships are based on the Brutor tribe's philosophy of warfare: simply fit as much firepower onto your ship as possible. Defense systems and electronics arrays therefore take a back seat to sheer annihilative potential.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#11 - 2012-04-16 20:11:44 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Stop min/maxing them for solo PvP and you will find they all have viable roles.


That's not what im doing. The claw can be used for solo PVP as can the wolf, but neither of these ships are useful enough to be picked up over another races ship even in a gang situation.

And the muninn... well.... it needs that mid slot for tracking computers and sensor boosters. I thought that would be obvious as part of a sniper gang?


I want to see a gang where there's so many people that one race gets picked over another and you have to sit at home instead of roam/whatever.

"You, number 662, take your claw and GTFO. You are being replaced by Caldari."

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Katalci
Kismesis
#12 - 2012-04-16 20:32:42 UTC
The ships aren't the problem; it's just that you're bad at fitting/using them.
Sovai Elaaren
KABS Deep Recon Unit
#13 - 2012-04-16 20:58:34 UTC
Katalci wrote:
The ships aren't the problem; it's just that you're bad at fitting/using them.


As I was reading this over again, I was thinking, despite the ships bonuses and slots being somewhat at odds, the Wolf is still a great ship, good at both brawling and kiting. I'm actually far less impressed with the Jag than the Wolf.
Eli Green
The Arrow Project
#14 - 2012-04-16 21:17:15 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
All three are designed by Boundless Creation:

Boundless Creation's ships are based on the Brutor tribe's philosophy of warfare: simply fit as much firepower onto your ship as possible. Defense systems and electronics arrays therefore take a back seat to sheer annihilative potential.


+1

wumbo

Alara IonStorm
#15 - 2012-04-16 22:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
I just don't get the Muninn.

I mean a Fleet Artillery Boat with 7 High Slots and only 5 Guns...

4 Mids, 6 Lows like the Hurricane would seem to be a much better use of those slots. Or at least 6 High, 4 Mid, 5 Low. But 3 Mids on a Shield Tanker...

It's like if the Zealot was 7 High, 3 Mid, 5 Low with 5 Guns.

Does anyone know why they gave it so many Highs?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#16 - 2012-04-17 00:12:23 UTC
The Muninn is still widely used, but it would be awesome if one of the highs got moved to the mid slots. It could also stand to be a bit easier to fit.

Many Minmatar ships suffer from the original misguided attempts to make them split-weapon ships.I think that is why the Muninn has those two extra high slots.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
#17 - 2012-04-17 00:36:38 UTC
The Mewnin is a very good long range HAC if you are into that sort of thing, but neither the Claw or the Wolf are worth flying compared to the other ships in their class. 2 midslot frigates are pretty awful.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#18 - 2012-04-17 03:42:34 UTC
Let's be honest. If the Wolf had three midslots we would all see Shield tanked wolves. I'm glad CCP did not go that route. As it stands the Claw and Wolf have a fitting grid good enough to fit:

The largest tier AC.
A small Nuet
MWD and scramble
200mm plate and DC
Resistance plates, damage rigs, and/or damage and tracking mods.

They are among the smallest interceptors and assault frigates. They're fine.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#19 - 2012-04-17 03:45:12 UTC
My CEO flies the Wolf Quite effectively.
Got some nice solo KM's w/it

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt

Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-04-17 05:27:49 UTC
Sorry, when I read about the Wolf all I could think was 'awesome, homogenization, just what I like to see'.

Punctuation to designate sarcasm where, language?

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

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