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Crime & Punishment

 
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Griznatch
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#41 - 2012-04-16 14:18:05 UTC
Snipe


Also, since when is playing within the rules of a game in any way similar to ROBBING SOMEONE AT KNIFEPOINT IRL?

I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.
Kazacy
BACKFIRE Squad
#42 - 2012-04-16 15:00:28 UTC
Ikonia wrote:


Therefor the punishement and the consequences MUST and hopefully WILL be increased very soon. In this world there is no place for gankers, simply forbid shooting at other players in hisec.

Cheers


lol seems i am right when i say they will try to forbade the non consensual pvp in hisec. but you see, before you signed for this game you know the rules of the game and you came here and try to change all the rules to fit for you; now who is the griefer? Big smile
on a serious note seems this game it's not fitted for you and my best advice it's to leave us and go to hello kitty online or something like this. and if you decide to leave the mandatory:
your stuff, can i haz it? Big smile
Longinius Spear
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
#43 - 2012-04-16 16:04:34 UTC
I understand the OP line of reasoning and I get the responses from people that “it’s just a game”. I’m fairly sure the OP knows EVE is just a game.

They both have something in common, human beings are behind the controls in both cases. That being said, you can logically compare base actions of humans in EVE to Real life. It’s not that far of a stretch. This post isn’t about how close EVE is to real life; this post is about crime, punishment and a moral cause and effect equation.

We can all agree the punishment system in High sec ganks will NEVER be enough to truly prevent them. Even if you banned people the moment they opened fire on another ship, people would continue to create accounts just for this reason. They can only be stopped by taking the combat mechanic away from player vs. player in high sec.

In real life even the threat of being put to death in which ever state, country you live in, isn’t enough to change a person’s mind. Hell, even if the 100% known outcome of your premeditated actions will result in you also dying also, people will STILL do it(see Sept 11th) Since EVE is just a reflection of real life and we haven’t exactly solved murder, theft and mayhem in real life… why would our reflection be any different.? Why would it be any different in a virtual arena?

I think you should take a step back and look at what EVE really is to people. I personally think it’s and escape of the bonds of consequence. Where the 3rd gen telephone tuff guy can be king. Someone with little control over real life can have absolute or near absolute control over their future in the EVE life. To whatever end they choose. A desire for attention can be meet to some degree as long as you can somehow SHOCK, what we know to be right and wrong. I’m a firm believer that our actions in a totally non-consequence environment are a truer reflection of our inner selves than what we do in real life.

I can speak from experience, in real life I pull over for people in need because I would want someone to do that for me. But deep inside I want to punch them in the face for not having a working spare tire. I don’t exercise these impulses because I enjoy NOT being in jail. But in EVE.. .I can come across a lonely miner in a C2 and pod him without a second thought. He should have had a scout.. he should have been aligned.. he should have used his directional better. In real life my actions would be totally different. I can say this because both the miner and I subscribe to a given set of rules and risks. Real life also has a given set of rules we all must subscribe to… See no amount of virtual punishment will deter someone from acting on their primal impulses, not when it’s so easy to make another account/character. In real life though… there aren’t any new characters or accounts given.

There are two things that EVE and Real life in common… If you don’t like it.. .check out whenever you want, odds are you won’t be missed much.






Read more of my ramblings on my blog www.invadingyourhole.blogspot.com
Delhaven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-04-16 16:18:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Delhaven
To restate the initial question:

Delhaven wrote:
High level summary: I think the current CONCORD system is dumb. Please find an alternative system below. Discuss.
Some things I've learned:

1. The ability to make quick and easy alts pretty much eliminates the point of imposing any sort of longer-term consequences for ganking. What it would do, is to give a disincentive for gankers to do it on their mains. But after doing some quick math I don't think that makes enough of a difference. And changing the alt mechanics would just be a terrible idea on pretty much every level.

2. A lot of people take the view of non-consentual PvP. Taking that perspective to the extreme, it would make the most sense to just get rid of CONCORD entirely. Right now it isn't effective at law enforcement or justice, as gankers only worry about them in terms of bringing enough guns to the fight to blow up the defender in time. For the target, the current criminal flag system doesn't allow for much of a counterattack. So CONCORD is getting in the way of both sides.

3. I will never, ever, use a metaphor again. People tend to be far too literal, so things need to be kept much simplier than I did in this post. I apologize to anyone I may have unintentionally confused.

To summarize: I think CCP should get rid of CONCORD entirely and let Darwin take that over in the sandbox. This will allow both sides to have the ability to at least take matters into their own hands, and get rid of a system that is half-baked at best.

I've learned what I wanted to, so thank you to those who actually took some time to read and, more importantly, think before posting. It's appreciated. Lol
Ativan Loko
The Poors
#45 - 2012-04-16 16:32:23 UTC
Why would I want EvE to be similar to real life? If CCP implemented your rules, you would find yourself alone in Care Bear space due to the lot of us leaving. I pay a monthly fee to fly spaceships and grief whomever I damn well please, yes there are penalties for suicide ganking and the tears are completely worth it, but locking down the game like Auschwitz isn't good for anyone.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#46 - 2012-04-16 16:34:36 UTC
Shai 'Hulud wrote:
Delhaven wrote:
Why does Concord blow people up now if they don't think it's a crime?
Exactly. Concord already considers suicide ganking to be a crime. We are treated as criminals for an indefinite time period once our sec. status falls below a certain point. A suicide ganker grinding sec. status back up is the equivalent of paying one's debts to society. Have you never heard of a "chain gang?"

That said, your biggest mistake is comparing the reality portrayed in EVE to that we have seen in real life at any given time. Do you see Apple literally declaring government sanctioned war on Microsoft and raiding their HQ with tanks? There are a lot of aspects of EVE law that do not match up with our real life counterparts. Systems of law can be arranged in an almost infinite variety, so you need to defend your arguments on their merits alone rather than making comparisons to what you feel are real life equivalents.


The situation in EVE should be described more as the 17th century with nations in a ColdWar-like grip while 'mega-corporations' like the VOC shamelessly plunder competing vessels. Meanwhile CONCORD not unlike the 20th century UN desperately tries to maintain peace and order. And while formidably equipped, it simply lacks the capacity to police 'the world' nor has it the teeth to outright deny big corporations causing mayhem among themselves (like the cops gladly taking a bribe not to interfere in some vicious gangwar).

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
AureoBroker
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-04-16 17:33:52 UTC
Daemon Ceed wrote:
Personally, I'd rather the mechanics stay the way they are. I sui-gank you, you take my ship. Done and done. Jail is stupid and just further discourages an important part of the game; destruction.

What people don't seem to get a grasp on is every time a Hulk gets ganked, a miner is making money by the need for minerals going up to build new Hulks and the Hulk producer is making money to sell a replacement Hulk to the victim. It's all supply and demand. Destruction and creation. It just so happens that some of us enjoy the destruction part more, and that is truly what makes Eve great.

*sigh*
A hulk is about 50m of minerals, 50m of junk/invention, and 250m of moon goo.
Yeah.
jimmyjam
Fire Mandrill
#48 - 2012-04-16 17:44:14 UTC
Nice way to draw a parallel between RL and in game but. It has no relevance to the game it is just that its a game.
I dont understand why people make these BS threads.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#49 - 2012-04-16 18:18:39 UTC
Ikonia wrote:


[...] In this world there is no place for gankers, simply forbid shooting at other players in hisec.

Cheers


My God, you're serious, aren't you.

Please say you're just being ironic? Please?

Ni.
Devore Sekk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2012-04-17 03:39:24 UTC
Kazacy wrote:
tell this to a taliban when shoot a very expensive (training cost and so on) american soldier with a cheap ak-47; maybe they should need to buy expensive gear before shoot americans? imo it's logical to try to inflict maximum damage with minimum cost.


No, it's not logical because EVE is a game. You know, pixels.
Katerwaul
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-04-17 05:06:31 UTC
Concords sensor arrays are better than current law enforcement & they have automated response drones. Don't worry. In the near post-apocolyptic fascist future we'll have CMC officers violently revoking all of the weapons we're carrying without regard for due process when they catch us beating on some quiet kid trying to play in the dirt. 
Working with everyone to improve New Eden -- Internet Spaceships Iz Serious Business.
Mr Morita
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#52 - 2012-04-17 06:03:26 UTC
I wish the police arrived in 20 seconds IRL.
Eryn Velasquez
#53 - 2012-04-17 06:36:49 UTC
Mr Morita wrote:
I wish the police arrived in 20 seconds IRL.


If they had warpdrives ...Lol

_“A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau _
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2012-04-17 06:45:12 UTC
Getting robbed at knife-point = spaceships blowing up other spaceships.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Kazacy
BACKFIRE Squad
#55 - 2012-04-17 06:49:52 UTC
Devore Sekk wrote:
Kazacy wrote:
tell this to a taliban when shoot a very expensive (training cost and so on) american soldier with a cheap ak-47; maybe they should need to buy expensive gear before shoot americans? imo it's logical to try to inflict maximum damage with minimum cost.


No, it's not logical because EVE is a game. You know, pixels.


i am very aware it's just pixels but my pixels cost me less time (RL time) than your pixels so yes i want to do maximum with minimum cost (for this game meaning less RL time lost for me). if you search the history of loses on bc, eve-kill you will see i always fly cheap ships with cheap fits (meaning t2, or standard best named) because i don't wanna spend too much time to grind isk for this, i just want fun.
Eryn Velasquez
#56 - 2012-04-17 08:40:42 UTC
Devore Sekk wrote:
Kazacy wrote:
tell this to a taliban when shoot a very expensive (training cost and so on) american soldier with a cheap ak-47; maybe they should need to buy expensive gear before shoot americans? imo it's logical to try to inflict maximum damage with minimum cost.


No, it's not logical because EVE is a game. You know, pixels.


Yeah, but these pixels are controlled by real life persons, ones that are mobbed in their job and compensate this by blowing up weaker gamers ships, and other ones that mob in their job and just do that also in game. So it's allmost human behaviour.

_“A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau _
Kazacy
BACKFIRE Squad
#57 - 2012-04-17 09:45:44 UTC
Eryn Velasquez wrote:
Devore Sekk wrote:
Kazacy wrote:
tell this to a taliban when shoot a very expensive (training cost and so on) american soldier with a cheap ak-47; maybe they should need to buy expensive gear before shoot americans? imo it's logical to try to inflict maximum damage with minimum cost.


No, it's not logical because EVE is a game. You know, pixels.


Yeah, but these pixels are controlled by real life persons, ones that are mobbed in their job and compensate this by blowing up weaker gamers ships, and other ones that mob in their job and just do that also in game. So it's allmost human behaviour.


ofc it's human behavior because it's a multiplayer game. if it's not human behavior involved i play a single player game, wich unfortunately in the last years are very boring except 1 max 2 per year. so yeah when you signed for this game you also signed for a dark, unforgiven universe but dark component it's from other players not from some stupid npc's. if you don't like this part pls leave us we don't need you.
Daemon Ceed
Ice Fire Warriors
#58 - 2012-04-17 10:10:04 UTC
Ikonia wrote:


Therefor the punishement and the consequences MUST and hopefully WILL be increased very soon. In this world there is no place for gankers, simply forbid shooting at other players in hisec.

Cheers


Oh FFS, HTFU man. You can't forbid shooting in highsec anymore than you can forbid and 100% prevent such things in even the safest cities in the world. CCP has already made many sweeping changes to assuage the carebears who do nothing but make risk-free ISK all day, every day. It's nearly destroyed the very way of life that those such as myself enjoy and has also caused some of the terrible inflation we are seeing. Why should the way you like to play your game be more important than the way I like to play mine? This is the sandbox. Live with it or feel free to go back to WoW or whatever children's game you choose.

And as to the comments that gankings only motivation is to create grief, I got news for ya. We make damn good money off of what your ship drops and the salvage. The T2 salvage is quite profitable, especially seeing as I only lose at most a 2mil ISK gank Catalyst. This is the exact reason I don't bother ever ganking Covetors or Retrievers. There is hardly any profit in it except for the occasional strip miners. I gank for profit. The occasional tears are pretty nice, too.
Eryn Velasquez
#59 - 2012-04-17 10:32:54 UTC
Kazacy wrote:

ofc it's human behavior because it's a multiplayer game. if it's not human behavior involved i play a single player game, wich unfortunately in the last years are very boring except 1 max 2 per year. so yeah when you signed for this game you also signed for a dark, unforgiven universe but dark component it's from other players not from some stupid npc's. if you don't like this part pls leave us we don't need you.


Ooops, did it read like i was complaining? It was just a statement about the people - the same asshats you meet in real life you also meet in online games. No problem to deal with ...

_“A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau _
Meridith Akesia
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-04-17 11:46:47 UTC
Stopped reading at the part where you compared eve to real life.