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New War Dec system - massively article - Very good points covered.
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Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#81 - 2012-04-17 01:05:51 UTC
Gogela wrote:
If you are "innocent" and/or "defenseless" you should not have a corp!!! It's an oxymoron!


Ahh, that's a good angle.

Maybe start calling anyone who starts a corp an insurgent?

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#82 - 2012-04-17 01:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Bane Necran wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
1) Does not address the fact that people will do the impossible to avoid it (they'll join huge fake alliances and whatever).


Pretty sure i heard CCP mention that if you corp hop from a decced corp you will still remain a war target until the war is over.

Might have misheard them, though.


No its if your corp hopps from one one alliance to another it follows the corp. If an individual hops from one corp to another it doesn't follow the single pilot ( if I am wrong show me the link )

FROM CCP DEV blog Q&A:
"Q: What about corp-hopping?
A: We're adding tracking in the backend to track this. How we will then display it in game is undecided, but we do have stories in the backlog (todo list) for the character war history to show if the character left a corp at war. We also want to have it cost a little to corp-hop during a war. We're also looking into not allowing you to join a corp you've left during a war while that war is still ongoing. We're also exploring some limitations to joining and leaving a corp on the fly.

Q: Corp at war joining an alliance
A: Only aggressor corp is banned from joining an alliance (this is so alliances can't use a corp to dec an alliance and then join to get the whole alliance into the war, there are a few other edge cases). A decced corp can join an alliance and will transfer it's wars to (and from when leaving ) the alliance.
"

This part has seemed to confuse people because it was not well worded:
"•Have wars move with you when you enter/leave alliances. If you are engaged in a war that you declared, you cannot join an alliance until that war is finished."

I read you as being you the corp not an individual pilot. You a pilot cann't declare a war only a corp or alliance can on another corp or alliance. Sorta reminds me of what the meaning of is is agruement only a lawyer would luv
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#83 - 2012-04-17 01:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Gogela wrote:

You are not good at posting. Fewer line breaks yo.

No it is a privilege in that you need to be able to stand on your own. You are unable and unwilling to stand on your own.


No problem, just don't read my posts.

No Einstein I have 3 digit billions so STFU with your LOLing. I want a mechanic that works but that just wooooooooshes over your head. Your 2 braincells did not get to the hard concept that I have no issue with wardecs per se but with the fact it's useless to have a PvP corp department that would play 1 week every 4 months but also highly ineffective to pay mercs to do so, since mercs cannot defend a running operation and mercs cannot attack the aggressor corp that instantly becomes a 2 men corp with everybody of them jumping into another corp.


Gogela wrote:

oh? You have something to say... an analog to RL? In RL if you hire mercs you are doing so to kill the hell out of your enemies. Armies and "public" security usually handles garrison security jobs (in other words entities hiring mercs are capable of defending themselves, they use mercs for more dangerous jobs like attacking).


Your own analogy fails immediately in EvE. In RL you can pay the intern military, in EvE they just get bored and leave the corp, they are not after money but after PvP fun.


Gogela wrote:
Again, this isn't minecraft. If someone wants something you have you can't just stomp your foot and pout like a little kid. Well... I suppose you could but a lot of good it will do you.


I want to see how they come in Jita IV to take what I have.
But anyway, you fail to mention about the symmetric mechanic: if I want to bust the attackers ass... they just corp hop else where. GREAT BLA BLA BLAH of yours but the first chickens are they, the instant they see someone not bending down.


Gogela wrote:

You are terrible at PVP and so is your whole corp. The reason for this is that you are a very focused industrial corp. BUT.... you are so bad at industry that you don't have any ISK either?! ROFL! Man you are just bad at EvE. It sounds likeyou don't do anything well and on the basis of that you intend to raise an empire. Good luck with that... hahaha! For the record though watch how many small yet very good merc corps pop up now that there's a viable mechanic to support them. I know a lot of guys who have been waiting for it.


I do PvP every day on the markets and won enough to have enough ISK to not know what to do with that. Keep the laughter for yourself. The day you get 100B just given to you to hold as third party on behalf of someone else then you'll have joined the end game. You recently killed 27 industrials in 0.4 sec. BRAVO! That's the PRO at EvE, I mean, Garmon himself should humbly hide at the sight of your schooling on the other players!


Gogela wrote:
The agressing corp can be deced just like your corp can. They are just at much at risk... just because they don't feed your feeble corp members easy kills and ships doesn't mean they are taking any less of a risk.


Balls, they are not at risk at all. They wardec the nameless 5 men hi sec indy corp because they do NOT want any risk. The second the nameless hi sec corp hires a good merc the wardeccers immediately dock or corp hop. That's all the BLAH BLAH BLAH risk they take.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#84 - 2012-04-17 01:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
Bane Necran wrote:
Gogela wrote:
If you are "innocent" and/or "defenseless" you should not have a corp!!! It's an oxymoron!


Ahh, that's a good angle.

Maybe start calling anyone who starts a corp an insurgent?

<--- Pirate corp. No need for labels. You're either too tough and scary and we run, too soft, squishy, or new and not worth the ammo, or in a hauler, a freighter, or something expensive and thus food.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
blah blah blah I'm super rich but i can't afford a merc, i'm the baddest pvp toolbag evar but my corp can't defend itself... blah blah

Your numbers fail to impress. You seem weak.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
...since mercs cannot defend a running operation and mercs cannot attack the aggressor corp that instantly becomes a 2 men corp with everybody of them jumping into another corp.


Can't dec-shield like that with the new mechanic. Not as easily anyway. Read... something. If they all jumped ship though, that kind of contradicts your argument about mercenaries being worthless... just like your "durka 3 digit billions" (the judges would have also accepted "hundreds of billions") contradicts what you said about not being able to afford a merc corp. sounds like you are super rich and super bada** at PvP you should dec NC.

Quote:
I do PvP every day on the markets and won enough to have enough ISK to not know what to do with that. Keep the laughter for yourself. The day you get 100B just given to you to hold as third party on behalf of someone else then you'll have joined the end game. You recently killed 27 industrials in 0.4 sec. BRAVO! That's the PRO at EvE, I mean, Garmon himself should humbly hide at the sight of your schooling on the other players!

I do alrighty. I won't go into it but suffice it to say I can afford my rock and roll lifestyle. When I take 100 bil I'm not holding it for someone, I'll say that.

No. I'm going to share my laughter. At you.

btw some of those indys were right on top of eachother. Do you know how exciting it is to have 8 indys all uncloak around a pirate by a WH? I was like a fat kid with diabetes in a candy store. Almost had a heart attack. One of those indys brought in 2 bil! It was a T1 hauler! One of my greatest eve memories now. Thank you mr zerg-series of alts, for the most exciting stalking and piracy eve session I've ever had.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
foxnod
Perkone
Caldari State
#85 - 2012-04-17 01:22:14 UTC
Read the article. The author's clearly a delusional carebear who didn't put up a single good idea.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#86 - 2012-04-17 01:40:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
foxnod wrote:
Read the article. The author's clearly a delusional carebear who didn't put up a single good idea.

foxnod you are always +10 to me Big smile


Bane Necran wrote:
I think you're missing my point.

^ reverse responce because I'm taking up too much forum real estate....

Yes. I missed your point. I think that is a good angle though... I guess I'm just getting worn out trying to make rational arguments because I fall for trolls like that guy Vaerah above who just talks crazy... when the mechanic hits hopefully I can do my little part to repair highsec. Maybe we should have highsecPOSaggeddon.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#87 - 2012-04-17 01:42:56 UTC
I think you're missing my point.

I'm attempting to show how screwed up real wars are, and the idea of any war having a clear goal or noble purpose is something propaganda usually creates.

There isn't any difference between what your average pirate or griefer corp does in this game and what actually happens in real wars. The only difference is in real life they often have to convince the public everything was justified. In EVE they just go ahead and do it, which makes people demonize them for attacking innocents. If they want to lose that negative stigma, they should adopt the same propaganda methods used in real life to disguise evil deeds, and we wouldn't be having these discussions about poor little defenseless hisec corps being wardecced.

Those small hisec corps are mighty wicked, and they're only pretending to be weak. It's a trick! They have ties to a giant threat, but i left the proof in my other pants. We can't waste time with all this evidence gathering, we must attack now!

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Jorma Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2012-04-17 01:50:52 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
I think you're missing my point.

I'm attempting to show how screwed up real wars are, and the idea of any war having a clear goal or noble purpose is something propaganda usually creates.

There isn't any difference between what your average pirate or griefer corp does in this game and what actually happens in real wars. The only difference is in real life they often have to convince the public everything was justified. In EVE they just go ahead and do it, which makes people demonize them for attacking innocents. If they want to lose that negative stigma, they should adopt the same propaganda methods used in real life to disguise evil deeds, and we wouldn't be having these discussions about poor little defenseless hisec corps being wardecced.

Those small hisec corps are mighty wicked, and they're only pretending to be weak. It's a trick! They have ties to a giant threat, but i left the proof in my other pants. We can't waste time with all this evidence gathering, we must attack now!


Darn trolls, stay under bridges.

Also, I love derailed threads,
foxnod
Perkone
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-04-17 01:52:15 UTC
Frankly, the small-med carebear corps that infest hisec need to be weeded out since they're the ones that burn out new players. I've seen quite a few of these "indi" corps where the older players abandoned their newer members like rotting carcases to the vultures, instead of teaching and leading them against the wardecers.
Aggressive Nutmeg
#90 - 2012-04-17 01:55:44 UTC
Welcome to Eve. The universe where a simple trading company can be driven out of business via military action!

Imagine Samsung declaring war on Apple and killing its CEO.

Hang on a sec. Shocked

Seriously, Eve has to be the weirdest, dumbest politcal/economic simulation every conceived.

Damn teenagers and neckbeards!

Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#91 - 2012-04-17 02:02:27 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
the article wrote:
Nobody will fly a mining ship, hauler, freighter, or expensive mission-running ship while a war is in progress,


Even though they already do, frequently.

Just sayin.



Yep, you'd be surprised how often this happens. The last war that we just came out of we racked up a few mining barges and scored ourselves a free mission Harbinger that the pilot simply bailed out of. I don't think the other corp even bothered to put us on the ever so useful watch list which makes a wonderful first warning that trouble is coming.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#92 - 2012-04-17 02:18:11 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
After reading more of this thread i've become convinced all the griefers need is better propaganda to convince the public that the killing of the innocent and defenseless is justified. P

Maybe start making baseless claims that small hisec industry corps are connected to corps that are actual threats?


highsec industry corps support al queda

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2012-04-17 02:36:31 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Herping yourDerp wrote:
engage in armed conflict for
resources<- doesn't happen in highse
land<- nope not in highse
intolerance other races religions or creeds <- probably against TOS if about RL stuff, in game most corps have multiple races and ideologies

pretty sure there has never been a war, in the entirety of human history that involved "lets go to war for no benefit"


Removal of a POS was an example you gave before. That's a resource you're either just denying someone else to weaken them or you plan to put your own POS there. There is no land in this game obviously, but places to put a POS are in high demand for some hisec systems

Intolerance and pettiness has fueled many, many, wars in real life. Lots have even been sparked over smacktalk, much like they are in this game. The idea all wars are justified and fair is propaganda. You routinely see extremely powerful militaries invading weaker and unprepared countries with little or no justification given. And there's always benefits to war for the victor, and the people supplying armaments.

It's bizarre to find myself on this side of the 'greifers' here for once What?, but i'm only doing so because much of real war actually is greifing. Go check out liveleak for awhile if you don't believe me. If you want to make an argument that war in EVE should be more fair than real wars i'd have no problem with that, but lets not have any illusions about the fairness of real war, please.


except, they never take the moons when poses are killed.. its very rare if it happens

some wars probably are started by smack talk, but most are definitely looking in belts for miners or searching for a large alliance declaring they live in highsec and mine alot or something to that effect.

the sole purpose of probably 98% of wardecs is just to get kills or get rage mail, which is not how it should be despite what people think.
like someone said before, the ideal thing is a war in which both parties can actually win by doing something, win conditions ect..
CCP seems to be doing the only thing they can think of short of removing wardecs which is make them more expensive.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#94 - 2012-04-17 02:41:39 UTC
Jorma Amatin wrote:
Darn trolls, stay under bridges.

Also, I love derailed threads,


I think it's pretty on point. But i'll try to be more direct because i seem to have confused you.

Wars are by their very nature unfair. The idea they are is an illusion. Military strategy is all about having an unfair advantage over whoever you're attacking, meaning the strong are always attacking the weak. EVE is realistic in this way.

If people want all wars in EVE to be fair, then they no longer want wars, they want the arena system from WoW, or something.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#95 - 2012-04-17 02:49:08 UTC
Gogela wrote:
quoted quote


Bane Necran wrote:
quoted quote


Gogela wrote:
quoted quote


Bane Necran wrote:
quoted quote


you all argue like Tippia

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
#96 - 2012-04-17 02:58:48 UTC
Richard Hammond II wrote:

you all argue like Tippia


That's harsh mang......

I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
Kestrix
The Whispering
#97 - 2012-04-17 03:45:18 UTC
Quote:
To start a war, the attacker should have to place the war fee into a war command structure that would be in space, orbiting a planet, or at a starbase. If the defending corp destroys this structure, it would collect the war fee


What happens if all the members of the defending corp decide to bail out of their corp leaving an inactive CEO as the only member? Can the attackers destroy their own war structure and collect thier isk back or do they just sit at their POS/Planet glumly looking at thier defunct war structure?

The problem with adding victory conditions to wars is that this assums both sides want to fight.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-04-17 03:57:24 UTC
Kestrix wrote:
Quote:
To start a war, the attacker should have to place the war fee into a war command structure that would be in space, orbiting a planet, or at a starbase. If the defending corp destroys this structure, it would collect the war fee


What happens if all the members of the defending corp decide to bail out of their corp leaving an inactive CEO as the only member? Can the attackers destroy their own war structure and collect thier isk back or do they just sit at their POS/Planet glumly looking at thier defunct war structure?

The problem with adding victory conditions to wars is that this assums both sides want to fight.


Part of the idea is to give defenders a reason to fight. If fighting had a tangible benefit, such as ending the war sooner, or forcing it to end if the attackers aren't committed to fighting. In my opinion a tangible war goal would be a good thing, but what it would have to be i don't know. And as many have pointed out the static structure idea has it's glaring flaws.
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#99 - 2012-04-17 04:02:26 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kestrix wrote:
Quote:
To start a war, the attacker should have to place the war fee into a war command structure that would be in space, orbiting a planet, or at a starbase. If the defending corp destroys this structure, it would collect the war fee


What happens if all the members of the defending corp decide to bail out of their corp leaving an inactive CEO as the only member? Can the attackers destroy their own war structure and collect thier isk back or do they just sit at their POS/Planet glumly looking at thier defunct war structure?

The problem with adding victory conditions to wars is that this assums both sides want to fight.


Part of the idea is to give defenders a reason to fight. If fighting had a tangible benefit, such as ending the war sooner, or forcing it to end if the attackers aren't committed to fighting. In my opinion a tangible war goal would be a good thing, but what it would have to be i don't know. And as many have pointed out the static structure idea has it's glaring flaws.


Give the defenders a way to win

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#100 - 2012-04-17 04:04:31 UTC
Richard Hammond II wrote:
you all argue like Tippia


I'll admit when i'm wrong, and have done so in the past.

In all these years Tippia has never been wrong once, or so he'd have us believe.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi