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Projectile Ships vs Hybrid Ships

Author
Rond Dorlezahn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-04-16 18:31:52 UTC
Hello all. I'm currently training for Caldari ships, but some people have told me that the Rokh is an underpowered battleship...my goal is to avoid missile boats, as I prefer Hybrids, but if the Rokh is really that bad then I might consider training up Minmatar ships while using my current battlecruiser for missions. However, I don't really feel like undergoing the drone training necessary for Gallente ships, though it seems they are proficient with Hybrid turrets as well.

So which is better for someone in a small gang corp: Projectile-based Minmatar ships, or Hybrid-based Caldari ships?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#2 - 2012-04-16 18:41:29 UTC
Caldari Hybrid ships have problems (IMO). I'd personally train Gallente so that you get the Caldari Hybrid ships for free ,when they inevitably get rebalanced, but also because Gallente is pretty pimp. But if you don't want to do that then the answer is obvious: train projectiles.

Also, consider lasers. They're mad pimpin.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Rond Dorlezahn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-04-16 18:43:02 UTC
I've heard a lot of people say Lasers are the worst weapon, and I definitely had much better results using a Caldari cruiser with hybrids than I did with an Amarr cruisers.

Also, if you don't mind explaining further, what is it about Caldari ships that are underwhelming with rails?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#4 - 2012-04-16 18:46:56 UTC
Ok, so here's the skinny: Caldari ships just lack mobility and damage which are two key ingredients for small gang PVP. The only Caldari Rail ship that I find useful for small gang PVP is the Harpy, and its OP as hell. I hear good things about the Naga, but its just not my cup of tea.

As to lasers: they're damn near overpowered and anyone that says they're "bad" has lost a few too many brain cells to be considered even marginally intelligent.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#5 - 2012-04-16 18:53:02 UTC
In before a rash of "Caldari Sucks" posts. Rail based Caldari boats are horribly underwhelming. Having said that - Blaster based Caldari boats are shockingly good. And unnoticed. I actually prefer them to Gallente blaster boats.

They can usually fit nuetron or ion blasters. Gallente? Ion or electrons are the norm.
They shield tank. Their lows can be full of damage mods and tracking enhancers.
Shield resist bonus = very sick tanks. And unlike the Gallente those tanks don't come at the cost of most of their gank.
Optimal Bonus - this, added to the Null ammo change, is huge. I have a Harpy that gets 9.2km optimal with null. Ferox - 11km optimal and 11km falloff. Eagle - 16km optimal, 11km falloff. Rokh - 22km optimal, 23km falloff. Turret to turret, caldari blasters outshoot minmatar AC within scramble or point range.

Their downside is their slow speed and lack of drones. Minmatar drone bays move the damage curve back from being absolutely favorable to the Caldari.
Rond Dorlezahn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-04-16 18:54:21 UTC
I must be doing something wrong myself, then, because I went from struggling to finish L2 missions in a Maller to breezing through them in a Moa.

If lasers really stack up to Rails and Projectiles, I might consider going back to Amarr ships. Don't want to make a decision too fast, though, so I'm just gonna keep training support skills for now. Big smile
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#7 - 2012-04-16 19:00:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Rond Dorlezahn wrote:
I must be doing something wrong myself, then, because I went from struggling to finish L2 missions in a Maller to breezing through them in a Moa.

If lasers really stack up to Rails and Projectiles, I might consider going back to Amarr ships. Don't want to make a decision too fast, though, so I'm just gonna keep training support skills for now. Big smile


Shooting Guristas/Caldari State/Angels with a laser ship is one of the more painful experiences in Eve. On the flip side, there's literally nothing better for shooting Blood/Sansha/Amarr Empire. IIRC lasers are even best against drones and some other stuff too. The "top tier" mission ships are (in no particular order):
- Mach/Vargur
- Nightmare/Paladin
- CNR
- Golem
- Tengu

You could potentially do a Sentry Navy Domi (either 350/425mm variant) and do alright, but I found the regular domi was outclassed pretty substantially by the CNR.

But ultimately, missions are not the only form of PVE and the ship you should use when PVEing is entirely dependent on where you live and what rats you're facing.

-Liang

Ed: BTW, complaining about PVE performance when you lead the thread with "for a small gang corp" is pretty misleading. -_-

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Rond Dorlezahn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-04-16 19:30:50 UTC
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression, I just meant that there are very few of us in the corp P

My main intention is definitely PvE Ratting/Missions, for now, just to get a cash flow going.
Derth Ramir
Fight The Blob
#9 - 2012-04-16 19:41:14 UTC
For large scale fights the rokh and naga are really great for 100km sniper gangs.

Fight The Blob.

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-04-16 19:42:16 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ok, so here's the skinny: Caldari ships just lack mobility and damage which are two key ingredients for small gang PVP. The only Caldari Rail ship that I find useful for small gang PVP is the Harpy, and its OP as hell. I hear good things about the Naga, but its just not my cup of tea.

As to lasers: they're damn near overpowered and anyone that says they're "bad" has lost a few too many brain cells to be considered even marginally intelligent.

-Liang



This
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-04-16 19:51:23 UTC
Go Minmatar/Projectiles or Gallente Drone/Hybrids.
These combinations give you viable ship choices for both PVE and small gang PVP.

Caldari/Hybrids is suboptimal due to small number of ship choices and poor damage.
Amarr/Lasers is suboptimal for PVE due to unchangeable damage type.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#12 - 2012-04-16 19:53:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Rond Dorlezahn wrote:
I've heard a lot of people say Lasers are the worst weapon, and I definitely had much better results using a Caldari cruiser with hybrids than I did with an Amarr cruisers.

Also, if you don't mind explaining further, what is it about Caldari ships that are underwhelming with rails?


Opinions vary greatly on this subject. what it basically comes down to in my opinion is mostly lore based. hybrid turrets were never meant as a top dmg weapon system. Each race has a weapon system they excel with, yet hybrids are shared between caldari and gallente. That is because based on the lore, hybrids were supposed to be a secondary weapon system as far as specialization goes between the races.
according to lore;
Caldari specialize in missiles, hybrids are secondary.
Gallente specialize in Drones, hybrids are secondary
Minmatar specialize in projectiles with missiles as secondary
Amarr specializes in Lasers with missiles as secondary

This is not written in stone but is more of a rule of thumb, as there are ships from every race that can be fit well with weapon systems other than what their races specialize in. But for the most part these are what each race receives bonuses on their ships for. Just as with tanking, Amarr and Gallente are generally armor tanked and Minmatar and Caldari are generally shield tanked. It does not mean other fits won't work, just that it is what that race specializes in. Some will argue that hybrids were not meant to be a secondary specialization just as some will argue that some Minmatar ships are better when armor tanked.

It is true that pirate faction ships are far superior but even they follow these specializations when you look at the racial skill requirements

I hope hybrids will become more viable with the next balancing pass but as it sits right now blasters can be good but rails still kinda suck.
Katalci
Kismesis
#13 - 2012-04-16 20:46:40 UTC
Active-tanked propmodless blaster Rokhs own. Maelstroms have better tank and range, though.
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#14 - 2012-04-16 20:50:33 UTC
Rond Dorlezahn wrote:
Also, if you don't mind explaining further, what is it about Caldari ships that are underwhelming with rails?


There's not a single Caldari ship with an actual damage or RoF bonus to railguns. Hence anemic railgun damage remains anemic, even if it can be projected to ridiculous ranges.

Oh, I'm lying. The Naga does indeed have a damage bonus to railguns. So a BC actually outdamages a BS with rails.

And don't get me started on the railgun Tengu.
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-04-16 20:54:26 UTC
Naga might be more up your alley. Rohk is cumbersome...and needs support to be effective. Not all gall boats need drones, and in fact might be ok because you can train up drones after you train up primary skills. If not projectile boats are good, but take a bit more time to train due to armor and shield.

For the laser argument not too long ago they were considered the best out there. Projectiles got buffed, and then they were the second best. V, hybrids now... eh they're more forgiving than hybrids due to the hybrid uber range dichotomy. Shortest v. longest ranges.

I suppose people will believe lasers are now "The weaksauce omg buff them." But really look at the boats and ranges/situations not the shear "lulz dps" numbers. Different roles.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#16 - 2012-04-16 21:00:56 UTC
well if for missions projectiles are awesome becuse of damage selection... same thing with missles...

but for lazy afk missions nothing beats a rattlesnake...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Rond Dorlezahn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-04-16 21:49:01 UTC
Sounds like Minmatar is the racial ship type for me, but I think I'll at least give Amarr Battlecruisers a shake since I'm already trained for them (just haven't used an Amarr ship since my Maller). Either that, or I'll stick with Caldari but use blasters for the time being. It's a shame that hybrids seem to be so lacking; I really prefer the feel of turrets over launchers in general.

It's just a shame that so many high-end Minmatar ships, especially the Vargur, look absolutely ridiculous when there are already much better, unused, T1 hull models like the Hurricane and Maelstrom.