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Re-ballance Clone Costs?
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Torothanax
#1 - 2012-04-16 02:36:06 UTC
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I don't care. It's a legit gripe.

For most people clones don't cost much, so no big deal if you get popped once in a while. For those of us that have been playing a while though, the upper tier clones are costly.

I fly with a set of two +3s in combat. Maybe some cheap hardwires. So 20-30 mil in implants. No big deal to get podded right? Wrong. Now toss in 45mil for a blank clone. Adds up quick.

Now here's my reasoning. I fly faction warfare. I hate isk grinding. Is really sucks in empire but that's where the war zone is. So I usually fly cheap ships. Frigates and cruisers. I choose how much to risk. 5-8 mil for a frig. 12 or so for a cruiser. My choice. I Choose how much to risk. Same with implants. I choose the risk. If i wanna run pirates sets, I can risk 500 mil. Or I can run +2s for what, 2 mil?

And then we get to clones. 45 friggin' mil for a blank clone??? That'll keep me in ships for at least a week. NOT my choice. The cost should be what's in my head, not my head.

Yes i think higher grade clones should cost more. More SP means I can make isk faster then new people... to a point. After a certain point more SP doesn't make you more isk. Yet the price of clones ramps up faster and faster the higher you get. Why?

Where is the risk vs reward and the "don't fly what you can't afford to lose"?
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-04-16 03:18:07 UTC
While I think that clone costs are expensive once you get to the upper tiers of clones, I also think that it's part of the game to really have to deal with the costs of clone replacements. The rapid expense of sp clone cost is something that older vets have to deal with, so with that in mind...

Deal with it.

Besides if you're getting podded frequently in lowsec your issues are much larger than the size of your wallet.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-04-16 03:24:02 UTC
Tripple clone costs. Its the taxes you deserve to pay to play the game the way you want as it includes keeping an isk pool set aside from running missions / ratting / other income source, if you are not prepared to deal with the consequences of playing how you want with the associated costs then uninstall EVE.

Also, buy plex and sell for isk...thats 10 clone updates! Don't want to spend real life money? CCP doesn't care, because they love the option of you spending more money if you are unwilling to run missions / rat for the standard $$$ monthly subscription PLEX is also available. CCP also wants you to have multiple accounts. CCP also gave you 3 character slots, make one cruiser only! You have your options, plan accordingly.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#4 - 2012-04-16 05:29:35 UTC
Working as intended.

If you dont want to pay for clones, stop risking them in pvp.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Adunh Slavy
#5 - 2012-04-16 06:53:14 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Working as intended.

If you dont want to pay for clones, stop risking them in pvp.



What a silly comment. "Point gun at head, pull trigger, you are dead. Working as intended."


They are too expensive, and frankly, pretty useless feature.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-04-16 07:32:29 UTC
Clone upgrade costs are a mechanic that has aged very poorly. Even the devs at fanfest admitted to this. Sure clone upgrades are a much needed ISK sink for the sake of helping to combat the every growing inflation, but that does not mean the sink can not be moved elsewhere in the game.

Reducing or some other form of trying to lessen the blow of getting out there and PvPing just doesn't cut it. Saying to deal with it is just a silly thing to say. What this mechanic does do is punish players who go out and PvP and the punishment grows larger and larger the longer you stay loyal to the game by training skills up.

The only solution to this is to remove clone upgrades all together. Then in the same stroke apply the estimated ISK sink to another aspect of the game that scales well and is not a form of punishment, but fits the mechanic. There is dozens of things such as a reprocessing fee for modules, starting manufacturing jobs, reducing NPC bounties, etc. Basically keeping the ISK sink in the game, but not directly tied into an acute form of punishment for PvPing. Another thing you can not ignore is that this will inadvertently cause more ships to die. This is because the mental barrier that is, "But my clone costs more than the ship so I'm going to stay docked." will be gone. Blink

Again, anything short of removing clone upgrade costs will simply not due.
Solhild
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-04-16 08:13:41 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Clone upgrade costs are a mechanic that has aged very poorly. Even the devs at fanfest admitted to this. Sure clone upgrades are a much needed ISK sink for the sake of helping to combat the every growing inflation, but that does not mean the sink can not be moved elsewhere in the game.

Reducing or some other form of trying to lessen the blow of getting out there and PvPing just doesn't cut it. Saying to deal with it is just a silly thing to say. What this mechanic does do is punish players who go out and PvP and the punishment grows larger and larger the longer you stay loyal to the game by training skills up.

The only solution to this is to remove clone upgrades all together. Then in the same stroke apply the estimated ISK sink to another aspect of the game that scales well and is not a form of punishment, but fits the mechanic. There is dozens of things such as a reprocessing fee for modules, starting manufacturing jobs, reducing NPC bounties, etc. Basically keeping the ISK sink in the game, but not directly tied into an acute form of punishment for PvPing. Another thing you can not ignore is that this will inadvertently cause more ships to die. This is because the mental barrier that is, "But my clone costs more than the ship so I'm going to stay docked." will be gone. Blink

Again, anything short of removing clone upgrade costs will simply not due.


How about jump clones with no ability to train skills or wear implants that cost buttons?
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-04-16 08:34:50 UTC
Solhild wrote:
How about jump clones with no ability to train skills or wear implants that cost buttons?


The problem with that is then podding such a clone would be pointless. Granted no one really knows what kind of implant set someone had on, but doing a full restriction would not be good. Having a cheap clone to do whatever in is nice especially when you can add cheap implants to help give an advantage if you want. Of course your putting those implants at risk too.

The other issues is players will still opt out of PvP if they are not in their 'no skill training or implant' clone if they can't clone to it immediately.

When I blow someone up (or get blown up Oops) I want it to have meaning. Most of that should lie with the ship itself that dies. Now granted you can get some super pimp implant sets out there, but that is not the point. For most combat the ship exploding is what matters. Strange as it sounds, but killing a ship to get to the pod (where the real damage is done under the current mechanics) is silly.

I would much rather blow up 30 million ISK in several ships than one ship and a 30 million ISK clone upgrade. That offers more action and satisfaction for both parties. Cool
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-04-16 13:53:38 UTC
If I were to do it, past a certain point, doubling the SP of the clone would only increase the ISK of the clone by sq. root(2).


As for another ISK sink: as someone else has mentioned, all the BPO research slots are always full.

Jackup the fees for high sec research and manufacturing.
Keep jacking up the fees until there start to be available slots in a station.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#10 - 2012-04-16 14:00:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Working as intended.

If you dont want to pay for clones, stop risking them in pvp.



What a silly comment. "Point gun at head, pull trigger, you are dead. Working as intended."


Quoting for truth. Unless you found the save game button in life...


Adunh Slavy wrote:
They are too expensive, and frankly, pretty useless feature.


By all means, dont buy any clones then. GO pew pew. Die in a fire. Then come rage on the forums over your lost SP when CCP gives you the finger in your petition.

That would also be working as intended.



Just stop being a whiny baby and space poor hobo. Pay for your clones when you go out for pew pew.


Moaning about forking out gazillions for a clone when you die is like crying over a 60 bil isk pricetag for a soon to be uselessly unbalanced & nerfed to hell and back ship, all because some noob in a 100k isk rifter with < 900k SP wants to be all he can be on the grid....

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#11 - 2012-04-16 16:12:58 UTC
My only concern is that when CCP does the BC split, some people are going to get SP that they must now pay for that they wouldn't have chosen if given the option.


For me though since I go for everything eventually, I think clone costs are fine where they are.

Maybe those who die a lot should get a discount...
Mark Androcius
#12 - 2012-04-16 16:24:01 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Maybe those who die a lot should get a discount...


That is actually quite a good idea.

https://androcius.wordpress.com
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#13 - 2012-04-16 16:35:13 UTC
Clone costs have been lowered a few years ago, back then the prices were based on the same principle as what got us titans in the first place "really, how many people would do that?". And we're back to it again, people who have been playing for years have to play exorbitant amounts of isk to keep their clone up, while I'll fully agree to the "higher SP should be able to spare the isk" what it actually means is "high sp players can't afford to clown around in non-uber ships or fits otherwise it gets way too costly because if they lose their pod it's gonna suck anyway".

Lowering clone prices isn't about dumbing down or anything silly like that, it's about realising that the game has been out for 9 years now and tons of ppl will have vast amounts of SP. It would be difficult to put a price on it but a guesstimate would be to have like 15-20 mil as a ceiling.
Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#14 - 2012-04-16 17:03:01 UTC
Agree with this completely. Clones should not be free, but there should be a low ceiling, which won't discourage riskful PvP. By saying a 100M sp character should be able to afford clones, you're saying they should do nothing but carebear. Obviously that's what some people want, so I leave it up to CCP to decide what is best for the game.
Adunh Slavy
#15 - 2012-04-16 17:07:17 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:

More stupid crap



Being an ass does not make your point.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-04-16 17:11:29 UTC
There is another answer to this, and it is alts.

Train up an alt to fly those frigates and cruisers, they dont need huge amounts of time and they will cost a lot less, plus their skills can only progress so far before they max out in their chosen ships. While its true that this doesn't really address the problem, its a good workaround till they do get around to fixing it. once that alt is trained up continue training your main and flying the alt. use the main for the big things and the alts for the general fun things.

While its probably not fun to hear, High sp characters flying low hp ships generally will mean consistently higher costs in clones. all it takes is one time getting podded and you've just paid the same amount as ten of your alts clones.

You can max out an alts cruiser and frigate skills way before you get to a 45 million isk clone (Upsilon@ 156 million sp)

There is a point where you have to recognize that there is a balance between what you want to do and what is logical.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Cristl
#17 - 2012-04-16 17:22:46 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Clone costs have been lowered a few years ago, back then the prices were based on the same principle as what got us titans in the first place "really, how many people would do that?". And we're back to it again, people who have been playing for years have to play exorbitant amounts of isk to keep their clone up, while I'll fully agree to the "higher SP should be able to spare the isk" what it actually means is "high sp players can't afford to clown around in non-uber ships or fits otherwise it gets way too costly because if they lose their pod it's gonna suck anyway".

Lowering clone prices isn't about dumbing down or anything silly like that, it's about realising that the game has been out for 9 years now and tons of ppl will have vast amounts of SP. It would be difficult to put a price on it but a guesstimate would be to have like 15-20 mil as a ceiling.


+1

This is a great summary.

Clone cost shouldn't be a significant factor at any stage in your career. Losing your pod is a major loss of face, and If you want expensive implants then that's a risk you yourself undertake. Exponential clone costs is just an ISK sink which pisses people off (as Vilnius said, it curtails 'clowning around' on rifter ops, but doesn't make any real difference to the trillions of ISK moved about daily in major hubs).

Shift the clone isk-sink to market isk-sinks. Just tax market orders slightly higher based on the last weeks' trade volume within a few jumps and *bingo*, balance with less bad feeling among pilots.

Might help spread people out from Jita 4-4 too.
Adunh Slavy
#18 - 2012-04-16 17:23:57 UTC
Need an ISK sink for clones, how about ....

Under 20 mil SP, clones are 100,000 ISK
Under 50 mil SP, clones are one million ISK
Over 50 mil SP, clones are five million ISK


Corpses can be sold on the market as alpha beta or gama (as above). Corpses can be "reprocessed" with a few skills, what results is some random collection of "brain salvage", regardless if the corpse even had implants, this is to normalize corpses so they can be sold on the market.

The "brain salvage" can also be sold on the market. Other people can train other skills and make implants using parts that must be purchased with LP/ISK and BPOs.

Whole new markets and industries are created which can be "ISK-Sinked" using mechanics that already exist. Heck make it a low and null sec only industry that has to be done in stations, where the law is less likely to observe such disgusting things as playing with dead bodies.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-04-16 19:08:33 UTC
The simplest solution is just removing clone upgrade costs all together.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#20 - 2012-04-16 19:23:02 UTC
Alternatively you could start selling clones with advantages built into them that would be a viable isk sink until players take it over. Then biomass processing profession would then directly be fronting the isk sink to charge players for implants and clones.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
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