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"New direction" = Incarna's hit massive production delays?

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CCP Fallout
C C P
C C P Alliance
#41 - 2011-09-28 13:46:18 UTC
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
Sad thing is that a big portion of your playerbase don't believe on those empty promises anymore. We focus on what you do and not on what you say. "hint hint" As for me, one account is down for some time and this one is runing on plexes and this scenario wont change till i see a big improvement on the game and direction CCP is focusing or isk runs out.


I want to stress this part of what you wrote: "a big portion of your playerbase don't believe on those empty promises anymore." I am extremely aware of this and very sensitive to this fact. It is something I have been working on internally for an long time, from before the riots. I will continue to champion player causes and concerns :D

CCP Fallout Associate Community Manager EVE Online @ccp_fallout
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#42 - 2011-09-28 13:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: non judgement
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
Judging for what i see in this forum and from what i see in game with the corps and players i used to fly around, its a good statistical example :) Anyway..

Quote:
We also know, very, very well, how unhappy you guys are with the direction EVE has been taking


Its big enough to make CCP change directions, or at least, make us believe they will.


Change direction? Did you read the post from CCP Fallout at all?
Holy One
Privat Party
#43 - 2011-09-28 13:51:08 UTC
Refreshingly frank disclosure there bro. From you that's something to behold.

One thing that concerns me is the sheer technical implications of shared spaces - its frankly not feasible with current gen video cards is it? Especially not the glorified toasters many people play eve one. Which begs the question, when you designed Incarna, who did you design it for? You must have known your demographic hardware baseline was pretty low even for an mmo. And did you really think you could deliver 1200+ people on a promenade in Jita? Do they even make 'establishments' big enough for that? What's the client footprint going to be? 1gb, 2gb? lol

That will run on a 256mb gpu from circa 2009?

I am not convinced. Straight

:)
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#44 - 2011-09-28 13:56:22 UTC
CCP Fallout wrote:
I'd like to correct a bit of misinfo in this line, "This new direction that CCP talks about is really only a week old. Meaning before that they were still chugging along full force in the old direction."

Not at all. This has been in the works for quite some time. In fact, if you review my older posts on these forums, you'll see that I've said pretty much that we are working out what is coming next. It was not my place to say, however, that we were not happy with the direction we had decided on when we did our release planning. :D

I'm not really comfortable with saying "old direction|new direction," especially in the context that you use it in. The teams working on Incarna delivered the one CQ they were required to deliver and continued working on the remainders as expected. Those CQs will go onto Singularity soon, possibly as early as next week, although I've not been given a solid date yet.

Here's how it all went down, as I saw it from my home office here in Queens, in laymans terms (no marketing speak from me, I know how you guys hate that :)).

We had our release planning after the summer holidays as expected. A lot of good material came from that, however, a number of people were not completely satisfied with what was decided on. We also know, very, very well, how unhappy you guys are with the direction EVE has been taking, and as Zulu said in his blog and later in the thread, we wanted to put an increased focus on FiS and give you guys something to be excited about.

Now, having said that, are we getting rid of Incarna? No. But to say more on is not something that I can do. Why? Because that is the job of the Senior Producer; Zulu will be announcing very soon and in a bit more detail on what is coming next.


See now this contained some actual information, I like!

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
CCP Fallout
C C P
C C P Alliance
#45 - 2011-09-28 13:59:49 UTC
Holy One wrote:
Refreshingly frank disclosure there bro. From you that's something to behold.

One thing that concerns me is the sheer technical implications of shared spaces - its frankly not feasible with current gen video cards is it? Especially not the glorified toasters many people play eve one. Which begs the question, when you designed Incarna, who did you design it for? You must have known your demographic hardware baseline was pretty low even for an mmo. And did you really think you could deliver 1200+ people on a promenade in Jita? Do they even make 'establishments' big enough for that? What's the client footprint going to be? 1gb, 2gb? lol

That will run on a 256mb gpu from circa 2009?

I am not convinced. Straight


Not sure, tbh. We should have more info down the line about this. Earlier this year we had asked players for older hardware so we could do a bunch of testing, but that was for CQ; I feel confident in assuming that that same kind of battletesting will be done with future Incarna work.

CCP Fallout Associate Community Manager EVE Online @ccp_fallout
stoicfaux
#46 - 2011-09-28 14:01:15 UTC
Mirime Nolwe wrote:

Sad thing is that a big portion of your playerbase don't believe on those empty promises anymore. We focus on what you do and not on what you say. "hint hint" As for me, one account is down for some time and this one is runing on plexes and this scenario wont change till i see a big improvement on the game and direction CCP is focusing or isk runs out.



Yes, but... we need to give CCP time to actually do something.

CCP got the message (rabble rabble!) and now we just have to be patient and give them a reasonable time to implement FiS changes that we can pass judgement on and decide if the "attention to FiS" trend is positive or not.

So add a V to the skill queue, pop a PLEX, and find something shiny to play in the meantime.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Jokerface666
Intergalactic Expeditionary Corp
#47 - 2011-09-28 14:06:22 UTC
CCP Fallout wrote:
I'd like to correct a bit of misinfo in this line, "This new direction that CCP talks about is really only a week old. Meaning before that they were still chugging along full force in the old direction."

Not at all. This has been in the works for quite some time. In fact, if you review my older posts on these forums, you'll see that I've said pretty much that we are working out what is coming next. It was not my place to say, however, that we were not happy with the direction we had decided on when we did our release planning. :D

I'm not really comfortable with saying "old direction|new direction," especially in the context that you use it in. The teams working on Incarna delivered the one CQ they were required to deliver and continued working on the remainders as expected. Those CQs will go onto Singularity soon, possibly as early as next week, although I've not been given a solid date yet.

Here's how it all went down, as I saw it from my home office here in Queens, in laymans terms (no marketing speak from me, I know how you guys hate that :)).

We had our release planning after the summer holidays as expected. A lot of good material came from that, however, a number of people were not completely satisfied with what was decided on. We also know, very, very well, how unhappy you guys are with the direction EVE has been taking, and as Zulu said in his blog and later in the thread, we wanted to put an increased focus on FiS and give you guys something to be excited about.

Now, having said that, are we getting rid of Incarna? No. But to say more on is not something that I can do. Why? Because that is the job of the Senior Producer; Zulu will be announcing very soon and in a bit more detail on what is coming next.


me likey, it seems like you guys are really going to set sails to victory instead setting sails to fail.
Keep up the god work, as long as you guys are keeping us informed, and are honest, i'd accept a 8 months wait for any expension, if i knew that then is comming a GIANT fix and rebalance patch.

I'd be more hoppy with fixes and rebalance for everyone in 8 months, then with 3 more CQs in 2 months or walking in stations in 5 months.

That are my two cents.
I hope the comming devblogs are going to be as sexy as the past 3.
Alexandra Alt
Doomheim
#48 - 2011-09-28 14:08:43 UTC
CCP Fallout wrote:

Now, having said that, are we getting rid of Incarna? No. But to say more on is not something that I can do. Why? Because that is the job of the Senior Producer; Zulu will be announcing very soon and in a bit more detail on what is coming next.


I think one of the biggest issues right now is not really the lack of information 'per se', but rather who's supposed to deliver that information and how much people don't trust him anymore.
Holy One
Privat Party
#49 - 2011-09-28 14:15:10 UTC
CCP Fallout wrote:
Holy One wrote:
Refreshingly frank disclosure there bro. From you that's something to behold.

One thing that concerns me is the sheer technical implications of shared spaces - its frankly not feasible with current gen video cards is it? Especially not the glorified toasters many people play eve one. Which begs the question, when you designed Incarna, who did you design it for? You must have known your demographic hardware baseline was pretty low even for an mmo. And did you really think you could deliver 1200+ people on a promenade in Jita? Do they even make 'establishments' big enough for that? What's the client footprint going to be? 1gb, 2gb? lol

That will run on a 256mb gpu from circa 2009?

I am not convinced. Straight


Not sure, tbh. We should have more info down the line about this. Earlier this year we had asked players for older hardware so we could do a bunch of testing, but that was for CQ; I feel confident in assuming that that same kind of battletesting will be done with future Incarna work.


CQ doesn't run on my PC. I have a 512mb video card and 2 gig of ram. Assuming, obviously, there will be a huge amount of 'downscaling' in textures etc, I still don't see it happening with more than 1-20 avatars. 1000? Fantasy!

I'm looking forward to these dev blogs and being proved wrong. Big smile

:)
Razin
The Scope
#50 - 2011-09-28 14:26:01 UTC
CCP Fallout wrote:

I'm not really comfortable with saying "old direction|new direction," especially in the context that you use it in. The teams working on Incarna delivered the one CQ they were required to deliver and continued working on the remainders as expected.


When did this "expectation" that only one CQ would be released with the 'Incarna' expansion become the official plan? This "as expected" that you keep using in your post just sounds a little disingenuous.
Crasniya
The Aussienauts
#51 - 2011-09-28 14:50:59 UTC
I still don't grasp why people don't understand the concept that "newer games require newer computers", and that MMOs effectively become a new game, requirements-wise, every expansion.

If your computer didn't come retail with Windows Vista, it shouldn't be able to play games more intensive than solitaire. If your computer didn't come retail with Windows 7, you probably need to look at upgrading in the near future, as a PC gamer.

This is why console gaming is more popular, because everything runs to a standard, which is generally cheaper. PC gamers have to, and should be expected to, maintain a hardware set that is at least around 80% of the top available specs at the time. Yes, MMOs tend to curve a bit below that specs-wise, but I hear someone talking about a 512 MB graphics card down here.

I had 1 GB on my graphics card three years ago. You should not be gaming with less than that. If you wanted a hard cut-off, nobody with a computer more than four years old should expect to play modern games.

Soraya Xel - Council of Planetary Management 1 - soraya@biomassed.net
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#52 - 2011-09-28 14:58:59 UTC
CCP Fallout wrote:
I'm not really comfortable with saying "old direction|new direction," especially in the context that you use it in. The teams working on Incarna delivered the one CQ they were required to deliver and continued working on the remainders as expected. Those CQs will go onto Singularity soon, possibly as early as next week, although I've not been given a solid date yet.


Fallout, there is something you can clear up from me. I understand that there are two major release planning sessions each year to plan for the summer and winter releases. After the summer release there is the long slow period where a lot of vacations take place but people are still working... on something.

Are there longer term assignments that bridge the gap between ready for delivery and planning for the next release? It almost sounds like everyone just stops and waits for the next plan but surely people must have continuing assignments during those times.

_ _
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#53 - 2011-09-28 15:06:53 UTC


Just wanted to say Thanks to CSM and Fallout for all the answers.

Where I am.
Ilkahn
Ideal Mechanisms
#54 - 2011-09-28 15:17:54 UTC
I personally want WiS. I want to have a bar / gameroom to play poker in. Nothing like losing a bunch of isk on a blackjack table then war dec'ing the player that won all your isk.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#55 - 2011-09-28 15:31:17 UTC
mkint wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I don't really care why they are changing directions to fis. I'm just glad they are changing directions.


Oh but you should. The who, how, and why are very important. Just remember its not the destination thats important, but the journey.





Warning: I actually have no idea what I'm saying or if it is even relevant to the current topic.


Actually, it's really relevant. CCP going "we are doing this because we have to" is not the same as going "we are doing this because it's smart." As far as we know at this point the refocus will only last as long as subscriber numbers keep flagging. Once that's fixed, it could be back to CCP being stupid again.



It's almost certainly a combination of things. If their subscription numbers tripled after they released incarna, I don't think they would be changing directions but what we have is:

1) Current tech may make it hard to have many detailed avatars in the same room all running on one server
2) Players are expressing legitimate discontent on the forums
3) Flagging numbers on the server
4) possibly subscriptions are dropping
5) They said they would get back to fis in about 18 months back in june of 2010
6) They are making the news in a bad way
7) There is in fact allot they can do to improve core eve gameplay.

Trying to say only one reason is why they made this decision is overly simplistic. Different decision makers in ccp probably are probably putting different amounts of weight on these and other reasons to change direction.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#56 - 2011-09-28 15:31:50 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
I too have gotten the distinct feeling that the enthusiasm for Incarna that CCP was shoving down our throats just 3 months ago is now waning.


Quote:
they developed what they needed to developed in order to facilitate the development of WoD


Everyone's memory seems to be pretty short - Incarna was begged for by players for years, and by the time they got to it, everyone started complaining it was a waste of time and they wanted mawr spaceships. But player demand for "walking in stations" existed long before WoD was announced. A search of the old forums validates this easily.

The idea that Incarna exists merely as a testbed for WoD is just silly. They are certainly using it for that purpose, but they didn't shove anything down our throats, the players asked for it, they got it, and than they promptly rejected it once it wasn't what they wanted it to be. I still think once they release the other racial CQ and allow avatars to mingle in just about any fashion, in quarters or in establishments, much of the angry mob will be satiated and everyone will move on to the next thing to complain about. Think of the joyous outcries over the return of ship spinning - for all the "mawr FiS" talk, players prove by their actions that they really are much more fixated on station stuff than it is politcally correct to admit :)

As its been mentioned elsewhere on the forums, Steve Jobs has said "You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new."



CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Myxx
The Scope
#57 - 2011-09-28 15:42:01 UTC
if anyone has read a lot of what ive said on these and the old boards, im no fan of CCP's direction. Though, if you read even further back, or even if you personally know me, I've wanted incarna for a long, long time. I think a lot of us are upset with CCP pushing the microtransactions bit and not fully finishing a feature being something that has happened for even longer (pi, fw, dominion, incarna, incursions to name a few). I personally want them to fully flesh incarna out, and I personally want them to fully flesh pi, fw and dominion out.

My anger, and I think that of a lot of people, just stems from their microtransactions feature and their attitude to the resistance the playerbase has put up over it.
Flamespar
WarRavens
#58 - 2011-09-28 16:15:42 UTC
Something that I feel is under-represented in these threads is that a number of players, including me, have been looking forward to Incarna for years. And it feels that now that we finally have (part) of it, continued development on it is going to be derailed due to a bunch of 'OMG I WANT SHINEYS NAOW' forum whiners.

The one consistent message from CCP is that they want to create the ultimate SciFi simulator, and this includes Incarna. And I believed in that vision. At least I did,

I used to feel really confident about CCPs ability to deliver on this vision, but between the single room of incarna, CSMs constant sabre rattling, the non-committal silence from CCP, and the amount of angst on this forum. I really don't give a **** anymore.

I never thought I would say this - cause I think it sounds defeatist and is frankly overused on this forum - but I am going to cancel my subscription over this, and that makes me sad.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#59 - 2011-09-28 16:16:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
The execution was poor.


If we got all our Racial CQ's months ago - we wouldn't be in this turmoil - if CCP was on schedule, we wouldn't be in this discussion - if things went to the plan that CCP actually laid out, instead of months of mini-patches with nothing to really speak of in progress - we'd be somewhere.


In the last four months we've had 1 "serious" discussion about null sec shortcomings and how to resolve them.

AAAAAAAAAAAAnd that's it.


Nothing else added, hinted at, clearly defined or outlined.


Oh, wait, BUT DON'T LET ME FORGET ABOUT THE BILLIONS OF ISK CLOTHING ON THE NEX STORE that 100 people care about out of 300,000.


/facepalm


Clothes are neat, != content.

Expensive clothes that the average player will not buy = Stupid marketing.


If they had released REAL VALID prices on the NEX store they could have made $1,000,000 in a WEEKEND.

The plex prices would have shot up, but they would have been replaced and prices would have settled back down. CCP would've made a crap ton of money. Instead - no, we get $80 monocles.




This Fanfest video is always a nice reminder as to what we need to be looking for from CCP - CCP Delivers.

Where is it then? Is getting less than a quarter of your delivery really count as a delivery?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaT9Z2zxPu0&feature=player_detailpage#t=766s

Where I am.
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#60 - 2011-09-28 16:24:26 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
Something that I feel is under-represented in these threads is that a number of players, including me, have been looking forward to Incarna for years. And it feels that now that we finally have (part) of it, continued development on it is going to be derailed due to a bunch of 'OMG I WANT SHINEYS NAOW' forum whiners.

The one consistent message from CCP is that they want to create the ultimate SciFi simulator, and this includes Incarna. And I believed in that vision. At least I did,

I used to feel really confident about CCPs ability to deliver on this vision, but between the single room of incarna, CSMs constant sabre rattling, the non-committal silence from CCP, and the amount of angst on this forum. I really don't give a **** anymore.

I never thought I would say this - cause I think it sounds defeatist and is frankly overused on this forum - but I am going to cancel my subscription over this, and that makes me sad.


The last few posts speak the truth. There was and still is demand for avatar based game play, including from me. But something changed or someone started pushing their agenda and rallied people to their side. I hope that the "new direction" doesn't derail Incarna but instead finds a balance to support the two camps that have formed within EVE.

I'm not canceling my accounts over this. I still have the original part of EVE that I've enjoyed for the last four years and I still have a thing or two I want to try out. But, I will be disappointed if EVE stagnates even further by remaining only flying in space.

_ _