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Anticloak
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Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-04-13 22:06:02 UTC
Atum wrote:
I think you've become jaded by all the other anti-cloaking carebear threads that have come before, and I find it interesting that you call this "non-consensual PVP." In reality, it's "non-consensual non-PVP," as in, "I *WANT* to come turn your ship into a ball of molten slag, but have no means of finding you to make it happen!" I want to risk my precious ship! I want to come at you with points and webs and rockets and anything else I can use against you in what may be a hopelessly misguided adventure, but at the very least will result in a blaze of glory for one of us :)


No, YOU don't want to come turn our ships into a ball of slag. You, and your closest 50 friends in inties, recons, drakes, and battleships want to come turn our ships into balls of slag. Alternatively, YOU want to come blow us up while we're AFK and can't fight back.

In fairness, while we're off AFK cloaking, we WANT to kill your ships but can't. We also WANT to kill your ships while you sit in your POSes and stations, but can't. We also WANT to kill your ships when you show up with a defense gang ten times the size of ours, but we can't (or at least, we can't do more than snipe fast tackle or the occasional straggler).

In reality, you want the same risk-free scenarios you accuse us of abusing. You WANT to kill our ships while we're AFK, or you WANT us to log out / leave so you can rat risk-free.

If you really ~*want*~ to risk your precious ship, try baiting us :)
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#22 - 2012-04-13 22:33:59 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Guys, come on, show industrialists some love!!! =D

CCP is already showing a lot more love than usual in the coming months just by removing drone poo and meta 0 drops. Don't push your luck P

AstarothPrime wrote:
Just add some sort of fuel to cloaky ships which runs out upon IDK, 5-6 hours of constant cloakyness, just to get rid 2 week old perma-cloaky-rifter-cyno.

"Cloak fuel" again, and I don't like it... if I'm a member of xxDeathxx, and want to gather long-term intel on Goons, fuel management gets in the way, as well as being against what was originally described in the Project Mirage EVE chronicle as being a task so CPU intensive that it didn't scale beyond frigates.

Nikk - I get the feeling we're both after the same endgame, breaking the stalemate. It's just how we go about doing it :)

Nariya Kentaya wrote:
a good example would be wormholes, we deal with cloaked people in T3's,a dn ebcause teya re in T3's, theya re actually a threat. but instead of hidnig and complaining, what do we do? we play a little predator v predator.

set out soem tasty bait, look like your ebing completely ignorant of their presence, and when they come to bite, BOOM, 1400mm artillery to the face, and if i recall, 1400mm artillery serves VERY WELL as a cloaking-counter.

but if your problem is with AFK CLOAKERS, the ones who ARE AFK, and therefore WILL NEVER ATTACK YOU, then your being a whiney little bearcub and need to just leave the area your in, because obviosuly you dont have the bravado to hold it form someone who WILL fight.

AFAIK, we've only had to deal with cloakies once in my WH, a couple of bombers from a neighboring hole who just didn't want to go away. We dealt with it in a very similar fashion, only using inty's to clear and loot a radar site and a HIC to hold them. Faster lock on the bombers :) But yes, John Rourke was quite correct in his observation that stationary ships don't react well to 1400's. You're correct in calling out the whiney little bearcubs for being such (I was one about 5 years ago, until some of the guys in IRON cured me of that), but the problem still remains that they won't go out unless they feel totally safe, and with the drone poo/meta 0 nerf coming, this stalemate (as Nikk calls it) needs to have some sort of solution figured out quickly.

Mary Annabelle wrote:
I would rather mine with some kind of warning set up, make it local to my ship off of the Dscan, thats fine.

Think about it.

I detect a cloak, notify buddies they have a target to hunt, bam, problem solved. No more AFK haunting, and some other pilots are now enjoying chasing each other merrily around the system.

Win / Win

And I am sure some miners will forget to use that Dscan, or assume their buddies are and not bother, so the hunter gets to eat the weakly prepared.

Less competition.

I *think* you're suggesting something along the same lines as Nikk, in which case it seems like a good idea to me, except that the server load can become excessive if a lot of people all have automatic d-scan turned on at the same time. In WH space it's no big deal since there aren't a lot of us, but in a massive fleet fight, yeah....

Ganthrithor wrote:
No, YOU don't want to come turn our ships into a ball of slag. You, and your closest 50 friends in inties, recons, drakes, and battleships want to come turn our ships into balls of slag. Alternatively, YOU want to come blow us up while we're AFK and can't fight back.

In fairness, while we're off AFK cloaking, we WANT to kill your ships but can't. We also WANT to kill your ships while you sit in your POSes and stations, but can't. We also WANT to kill your ships when you show up with a defense gang ten times the size of ours, but we can't (or at least, we can't do more than snipe fast tackle or the occasional straggler).

In reality, you want the same risk-free scenarios you accuse us of abusing. You WANT to kill our ships while we're AFK, or you WANT us to log out / leave so you can rat risk-free.

If you really ~*want*~ to risk your precious ship, try baiting us :)

WELLLLllll, if you put it that way.....

What's nice about the Nikk's probe idea is that whoever's doing the probing has to get there first and either attempt to deal with the problem themselves, or serve as the warp-in point for the fleet. Either way, it opens up the possibility that they bite off something way bigger than they can chew (expect to fight a Buzzard, find a Sin). The downside is that it introduces new mechanics (transforming probes). My (refined) POS module takes away the new probe mechanics in favor of an globally announced "This thing is coming right for us!" countdown that protects anybody who's paying attention. Either method breaks the stalemate, which is really all that's needed. A cloaker isn't going to "take the bait" unless they're reasonably sure of success, and apart from WH space where nobody knows anything, the odds are pretty well known to both sides beforehand via local and intel channels. Unfortunately, that doesn't make the 'bears feel any better, so they still dock up and ship spin, continuing the stalemate.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-04-13 22:47:26 UTC
Honestly I spend almost all my EVE time hunting those who don't wish to be hunted, and I engage stuff all the time without knowing how the fight will go. You never really know what's going to happen in a fight. I could go to tackle a ratting Tempest and lots of things could happen from there: he could be fit awfully with meta mods and T1 gear and die in a fire, he could be bait fit and attempt to MWD at me while neuting, or he could slowly die, then light a cyno at half armor and I could be dog-piled by a 50-man gang.

There are steps you can take (and I do) to *try* and understand the situation better before starting a fight, but it's very, very rare to REALLY know exactly how things will play out.

Carebears overestimate how easy it is to kill them and consistently underestimate the risks involved.

Anyway, nothing should be done about AFK cloaking. It's not imbalanced as-is, and there's no reason to change it. It's already possible to probe out peoples' safes and decloak them if you're clever. I won't get into details though :)
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#24 - 2012-04-14 02:41:08 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Carebears overestimate how easy it is to kill them and consistently underestimate the risks involved.

Agreed, but perception is reality, and until the IRON guys showed me how to handle a gank attempt, my view was just as you describe. Unfortunately, not many people are willing to take bears under their wing and teach them how to use their claws. Consequently, the stalemate condition exists... you want to kill the pubbins who hide in the towers, I want to kill you so the pubbins can get to pubbin (and I can get back to laughing).

Ganthrithor wrote:
Anyway, nothing should be done about AFK cloaking. It's not imbalanced as-is, and there's no reason to change it. It's already possible to probe out peoples' safes and decloak them if you're clever. I won't get into details though :)

I'm familiar with catching someone as they log off (fair amount of luck involved with that), as well as logging off with aggro timers not expired (I've claimed a couple of folks that way), but I'm guessing you're speaking of something else....
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-04-14 04:03:44 UTC
Atum wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Carebears overestimate how easy it is to kill them and consistently underestimate the risks involved.

Agreed, but perception is reality, and until the IRON guys showed me how to handle a gank attempt, my view was just as you describe. Unfortunately, not many people are willing to take bears under their wing and teach them how to use their claws. Consequently, the stalemate condition exists... you want to kill the pubbins who hide in the towers, I want to kill you so the pubbins can get to pubbin (and I can get back to laughing).


Actually, reality is reality. I'm glad we agree though that a cloak nerf isn't necessary, and what carebears really need to do is learn basic game mechanics instead. Well, "need" might not be the right word. You know what I mean.

Atum wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Anyway, nothing should be done about AFK cloaking. It's not imbalanced as-is, and there's no reason to change it. It's already possible to probe out peoples' safes and decloak them if you're clever. I won't get into details though :)

I'm familiar with catching someone as they log off (fair amount of luck involved with that), as well as logging off with aggro timers not expired (I've claimed a couple of folks that way), but I'm guessing you're speaking of something else....


Yup :)
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-04-14 10:13:37 UTC
I'm so sick of people boo-hooing about cloaking. Cloaking is fine.

If you're so terrified by an AFK ship in local, then just don't mine/carebear. It's a good job you don't try mining in high-sec, because you'd absolutely **** yourself. What exactly is one AFK cloaker going to do to you? If you're worried about cynos, then mine in a system that is jammed. If you can't manage jamming a system, then GTFO of nullsec.

You whine about risk free AFK/Cloaking, just so you can have risk-free mining instead. It's pathetic.

[URL="https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=82348"]UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch[/URL]
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#27 - 2012-04-14 11:06:18 UTC
please dont discuss all the things over and over again, the threadstarter should simply f*ck off and read older threads.
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#28 - 2012-04-14 14:55:25 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
I'm glad we agree though that a cloak nerf isn't necessary, and what carebears really need to do is learn basic game mechanics instead. Well, "need" might not be the right word. You know what I mean.

Heh... agreed that a nerf isn't what's needed, just something to let me seek you out when you're 17AU from the nearest celestial, then rain heavy ordinance on you. Although.... maybe I should make a alt just to join the Goons so I can Hulkageddon with you guys. It'd be nice to be the bad guy for a change (IRON was soooo stuffy about being "good guys")

Miss Whippy wrote:
I'm so sick of people boo-hooing about cloaking. Cloaking is fine

If you're so terrified by an AFK ship in local, then just don't mine/carebear. It's a good job you don't try mining in high-sec, because you'd absolutely **** yourself. What exactly is one AFK cloaker going to do to you? If you're worried about cynos, then mine in a system that is jammed. If you can't manage jamming a system, then GTFO of nullsec

You whine about risk free AFK/Cloaking, just so you can have risk-free mining instead. It's pathetic

:facepalm: You're not reading. I'm not "terrified." I want to go hunting (and possibly die horribly to someone I *thought* was AFK, but they were actually baiting me). Last I lived in 0.0, cyno jammers did not block black ops, though this may have changed in the last year-plus. I'm in W-space now, which apparently you missed. Go ahead, put a locator agent on me (it might say I'm in Bhizheba, which (I think) is where I last docked).

I wish people would stop equating every idea for an anti-cloak with whining. Ganthrithor says that he'd like to be hunted. I'd like to have at him. But in a one-on-one situation, I doubt I could find the kind of bait he'd be interested enough in taking. Anything more than one-on-one, and we're back at Nikk's stalemate, where I won't attack because my intel channels say there's 150 goons two jumps away, and he won't attack because of my 200 guys in local.
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#29 - 2012-04-14 15:00:30 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
please dont discuss all the things over and over again, the threadstarter should simply f*ck off and read older threads.

You're free not to read this thread, and as I've pointed out, I've taken part in many of those older threads, usually to shoot the idea down as being too heavily weighted in favor of the defender Cool The drone poo/meta 0 nerf is coming, and when it does, we're probably going to see this board explode with other anti-cloak ideas. Best to solve this problem in a balanced way before CCP overreacts.
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-04-14 19:34:13 UTC
Atum wrote:

:facepalm: You're not reading. I'm not "terrified." I want to go hunting (and possibly die horribly to someone I *thought* was AFK, but they were actually baiting me). Last I lived in 0.0, cyno jammers did not block black ops, though this may have changed in the last year-plus. I'm in W-space now, which apparently you missed. Go ahead, put a locator agent on me (it might say I'm in Bhizheba, which (I think) is where I last docked).

I wish people would stop equating every idea for an anti-cloak with whining. Ganthrithor says that he'd like to be hunted. I'd like to have at him. But in a one-on-one situation, I doubt I could find the kind of bait he'd be interested enough in taking. Anything more than one-on-one, and we're back at Nikk's stalemate, where I won't attack because my intel channels say there's 150 goons two jumps away, and he won't attack because of my 200 guys in local.


If Ganthrithor wants to be hunted, tell him to switch his cloak off then. That way you can chase him and we don't have to have any more posts about nerfing cloaking, which is fine.

Black OP ships can't warp cloaked. Try using this little feature called the Directional Scanner. If you see a Black OPs appear on scan, you GTFO. Again, no need for cloaking nerf.

[URL="https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=82348"]UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch[/URL]
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-04-14 19:35:23 UTC
Atum wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
please dont discuss all the things over and over again, the threadstarter should simply f*ck off and read older threads.

You're free not to read this thread, and as I've pointed out, I've taken part in many of those older threads, usually to shoot the idea down as being too heavily weighted in favor of the defender Cool The drone poo/meta 0 nerf is coming, and when it does, we're probably going to see this board explode with other anti-cloak ideas. Best to solve this problem in a balanced way before CCP overreacts.


It's already balanced.

[URL="https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=82348"]UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch[/URL]
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-04-14 22:02:34 UTC
Atum wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
I'm glad we agree though that a cloak nerf isn't necessary, and what carebears really need to do is learn basic game mechanics instead. Well, "need" might not be the right word. You know what I mean.

Heh... agreed that a nerf isn't what's needed, just something to let me seek you out when you're 17AU from the nearest celestial, then rain heavy ordinance on you. Although.... maybe I should make a alt just to join the Goons so I can Hulkageddon with you guys. It'd be nice to be the bad guy for a change (IRON was soooo stuffy about being "good guys")


So, inserting a method for probing out cloaked ships /= cloaking nerf? If you say so...


Atum wrote:
I wish people would stop equating every idea for an anti-cloak with whining. Ganthrithor says that he'd like to be hunted. I'd like to have at him. But in a one-on-one situation, I doubt I could find the kind of bait he'd be interested enough in taking. Anything more than one-on-one, and we're back at Nikk's stalemate, where I won't attack because my intel channels say there's 150 goons two jumps away, and he won't attack because of my 200 guys in local.


I'm already hunted routinely by large defense gangs. My favorite are IRC, who will put out 50 combat scanner probes for an hour or two after you gank somebody, determined to catch your cloaked ship. When attacking carebears in nullsec, you've got to worry about cyno bait, dudes baiting for a docked gang (the same "are they AFK?" questions apply to a PVE system with 30 hostiles in local and one guy out in a sanctum in his Tempest-- is that guy bait fit and hoping to snag you for a gang of his 25 closest friends that are docked in the station, or are they just a bunch of AFK people waiting for you to leave local so they can rat? Who knows!), dudes baiting through jump bridges, log-on traps, and good old fashioned bait ratting ships designed to just kill you one on one.

Trust me, we're already hunted, and it's already very hard for AFK cloakers to actually kill people. Don't forget that on top of the aforementioned lists of concerns, you're also flying a gimped ship with inferior scan res, your utility slot filled with a cloak (that doesn't help in combat), possibly without all your gun-slots filled (if its a ship that lacks a utility high), and you're probably flying a hull that sacrifices offensive and defensive capability for maneuverability in the first place. It's not easy. There's literally no reason to nerf cloaking.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2012-04-15 04:28:06 UTC
this is not a new idea..(though it may be new to you). It has been dressed up and repackaged repeatedly here to the same unforgiving audience.

It's not a good idea for a variety of reasons...If you search all the old post of the same ilk you can read all the objections.

The main problem I see with your unworkable ideas is a pulse that uncloaks the system uncloaks blockaid runners or anyone trying get past a gate camp.. how many pos's would we see pop up prior to a gate camp to insure lots of covert traffic kills.. dumb idea.

then too, wormhole space with these "modules" in all the pos's there would become a nightmare, completely changing the face of wormhole space into some kind of unworkable polka.

Face facts, cloaking is working as intended and all these "lets break the cloaking" ideas will do just that - make cloaking a usless field of study.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2012-04-15 04:30:32 UTC
lol, did you hear what you said?

Quote:
and it's already very hard for AFK cloakers to actually kill people


No afk cloaker ever killed anyone.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#35 - 2012-04-15 07:42:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Wolodymyr
Miss Whippy wrote:
then mine in a system that is jammed. If you can't manage jamming a system, then GTFO of nullsec.

Then let cyno jammers block covert cynos.

I swear AFK cloakers keep going on and on about how people are cowards for not wanting to rat / mine with a neut in local. But they are never willing to engage in pvp unless they are jumping a random hulk or ratting domi with 15 recons knowing that they can get a cheap kill and cloak up before a home defense fleet forms up.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544
Morpheus Mishima
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-04-15 10:26:49 UTC
Somone is annoyed because there are cloakers in their system, why? They see them in local but not in space/on stations. Their solution to the "problem": remove cloaking.

AFK cloakers does not kill you. Local does.
Sir Sniper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2012-04-15 12:51:34 UTC
Cloaks need some sort of counter. Turrets have tracking disruptors, warp drives have warp disruptors/scrams, missiles have defender missiles, cloaks have



How about making it where cloaks require X cap to activate, use X cap per minute and you cannot recharge cap while cloaked. This would be a general nerf, and not a true counter however.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#38 - 2012-04-15 14:21:53 UTC
Sir Sniper wrote:
Cloaks need some sort of counter.


no it does not.
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#39 - 2012-04-15 14:42:06 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:

I'm already hunted routinely by large defense gangs. My favorite are IRC, who will put out 50 combat scanner probes for an hour or two after you gank somebody, determined to catch your cloaked ship.

You just made my point. 50 combat probes. Even a snowball in the deepest pits of hell has a better chance of surviving than the hornets whose nest you just kicked have a chance of finding you.

Barbara Nichole wrote:
this is not a new idea..(though it may be new to you). It has been dressed up and repackaged repeatedly here to the same unforgiving audience.
...
The main problem I see with your unworkable ideas is a pulse that uncloaks the system uncloaks blockaid runners or anyone trying get past a gate camp.. how many pos's would we see pop up prior to a gate camp to insure lots of covert traffic kills.. dumb idea.

then too, wormhole space with these "modules" in all the pos's there would become a nightmare, completely changing the face of wormhole space into some kind of unworkable polka.

Face facts, cloaking is working as intended and all these "lets break the cloaking" ideas will do just that - make cloaking a usless field of study.

Could be repackaged, I just don't remember seeing it in any of the threads I've shot down (which usually involve some sort of "fuel" or other ret-conning of Project Mirage). Then again, I don't bother coming in here much anymore on account of trolls. Anyways, the pulse countdown means the blockade runner has ample warning that something's coming, and after evading for N minutes, has *at least* 2N to make another attempt. As for tons of POSses popping up, won't happen. Waaayyy back at the start, I said these modules would require sov (so no using them in W-space), and be limit one per system (just like cyno gens and jump bridges).

Wolodymyr wrote:
I swear AFK cloakers keep going on and on about how people are cowards for not wanting to rat / mine with a neut in local. But they are never willing to engage in pvp unless they are jumping a random hulk or ratting domi with 15 recons knowing that they can get a cheap kill and cloak up before a home defense fleet forms up.

This. I'm in a bomber, I know I've got just enough time to launch the bomb and maybe a couple of torps before that hulk has me locked and the drones are on my tail. Seems the closer someone gets to a workable solution, the more vehemently the idea is shot down.

Sir Sniper wrote:
Cloaks need some sort of counter. Turrets have tracking disruptors, warp drives have warp disruptors/scrams, missiles have defender missiles, cloaks have

How about making it where cloaks require X cap to activate, use X cap per minute and you cannot recharge cap while cloaked. This would be a general nerf, and not a true counter however.

Yup... everything has a counter, EXCEPT cloaks (not that I'd call defender missiles particularly useful). But no to your cap idea. Cloaks are CPU based, and you admit that this is a general nerf, not a counter. Nerf=Bad. Minmatar inventing giant grid-wide cloud of powdered rust to confuse the cloak software and make you visible.... hmmm... Trust in the Rust!!!
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#40 - 2012-04-15 19:57:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Atum
The gears in my head are still turning with this rust generator idea... but grid-wide (at least at the start) seems overpowered. Going to let the yarrsters keep running with it, and I might need some protein delicacies to keep them going, but this is where they seem to be headed. All previous anti-cloak ideas we've seen have generally either broken pre-existing canon (aka Project Mirage), or are too overpowered in favor of the defender. There are legitimate reasons for being AFK (bio breaks, spousal aggro, kids' homework, etc) which must not be punished.

Someone who is AFK can't hurt you. I agree. However, that doesn't stop the bears from cowering in fear and bringing industry to a grinding halt. That is asymetric warfare which lacks a viable counter-tactic (Nikk calls it a stalemate, I call it non-consensual non-pvp, whatever). Ganthrithor observes that he can kill someone, then flip the entire system the bird just by cloaking up despite launching every combat probe in New Eden in a vain attempt to locate him. Again, asymetric warfare... he's made it clear he only wants fights at the time and place of his choosing, which gives the opposing side no effective counter (except for the hint that he's somehow privy to cloak-busting mechanics the rest of us aren't).

Quote:
[Information Warfare Link - Dust Cloud Generator I(II)]
Description:
Generates a cloud of fine dust from nearby space debris, overwhelming a cloaking device's compute resources. The effect is applied at the end of a completed cycle, and builds at a rate of 0.5km(0.625km) radius per cycle. The cloud dissapates immediately if not constantly refreshed.

Parameters:
Slot High
CPU 5000(5500)
Power 200(210)
Activation 25s
Duration 10s

Requirements:
Leadership V
Information Warfare Specialist I(V)

What's nice about this method is that at the beginning there is zero protection, so if a cloaker is already in the belt/anomaly/deadspace/whatever, they see the cloud forming and can take appropriate action. Do they kill the ship creating the cloud, or go for the miner/hauler instead? Eventually (25m later as currently conceived at tech 1), they're pushed out of bomb range, so Ganth (or anybody else) has plenty of time to size up the situation and decide what to do, including calling for reinforcements. Making the module a gang-link ensures that only battlecruisers and command ships can fit this thing, increasing the ISK risk for the defender. Jumpgates and wormholes nullify the effect if they're on-grid, as gate operators don't want to waste their time and energy shuffling any more space dust back and forth than they already do, and wormholes are natural vacuums anyway. Skilled cloakers can still beat the device by taking advantage of local terrain to create their own warp points and destroy the cloud generator (warping to 100 on an asteroid that's 151km away, for example). I'm starting to like this idea even better than my original POS mod since it remains a localized effect, rather than system-wide. It is also easily disrupted with a void bomb.