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Level 4s, raven or maelstrom?

Author
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-04-13 09:39:27 UTC
Gorki Andropov wrote:
My Raven was equipped with the following:

HIGH
06 x Cruise Missile Launcher I
01 x SMALL TRACTOR BEAM 1
01 x SALVAGER I

MEDIUM
04 x LARGE SHIELD EXTENDERS
01 x 'HYPHNOS' ECM
01 x MEDIUM SHIELD BOOSTER

LOW
01 x EMERGENCY DAMAGE CONTROL
01 x ARMOR KINETIC HARDENER I
01 x ARMOR THREMIC HARDENER I
02 x WARP CORE STABILIZER I

DRONES
02 x WARRIOR I DRONES
03 x HAMMERHEAD I DRONES

UPGRADES
01 x ROCKET FUEL CACHE PARTINTION I
01 x BAY LOADING ACCELERATOR I


+1 internets for you. I just looked up that old post and nearly fell down laughing so hard. I dunno, I just find that thread insanely amusing.
KardelSharpeye
The Watchtower.
#22 - 2012-04-13 09:55:20 UTC
You should be fitting hardeners so you can maximize the effect of mael's bonus not fit more SBA's.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#23 - 2012-04-13 12:37:43 UTC
Xawiahn Kabej wrote:

Using two rat-specific hardeners on my ship and only one adaptive. Should I use three rat specific hardeners instead?
I am lacking the CPU to be able to fit a shield boost amplifier without having to make a big change to the fit. How would you fit your maelstorm?


http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=TankingGuide

Remove insurance.

Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-04-13 13:26:29 UTC
Xawiahn Kabej wrote:
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Xawiahn_Kabej there you go. Hope that helps in some way.


after seeing your skillset i can understand even less how you could possibly have problems tanking. my only wild guess is that you fly against gurista and sit still while they are lobbing missiles at you. but even then you would have to shoot a few triggers to get in trouble.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Celeritas 5k
Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus
#25 - 2012-04-13 13:36:11 UTC
I've never flown a mael so I can't give any advice on fitting it, but as far as the scram frigs-- In many level 4's they start out far away and burn in close; if you split your guns in 2 groups and work quickly, you can blap 2 frigs per volley while their transversal is almost zero.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#26 - 2012-04-13 16:01:45 UTC
As someone who trained T2 Cruise Missiles and used Ravens/CNRs extensively, with good skills they are pretty awesome at PvE simply because many rats spawn at pretty extreme ranges, a high end CNR with implants will project 800+ dps with its missiles to 122 km lock range, 100% damage to BCs and BSs (you can tell by the consistency of volley damage) and around 90% to cruisers if your tp cycles lucky, no gun BS will ever have that kind of damage projection at that range. Also, 100% damage selection is HUGE in PvE cause you always know whats best, anyone who has used lasers on Angels will know.

However, 2 important things I think makes gun (specifically projectile) boats good, 1 popping frigs at range w/ low transversal, pretty big because when spawns are far away, I often kill everything but the frigs, and then I have to wait for them to come into drone range and let my drones kill them one by one, which takes time (also frigs web making gate crawls even more painful). Secondly, gate crawling, its a huge part of L4s and some lucrative missions involves gate crawls, which is why the Mach is so awesome, it has cruiser speed, less so for the Mael, but I've flown the tempest in missions and its pretty decent if theres a long gate crawl.
Xawiahn Kabej
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-04-13 17:27:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Xawiahn Kabej
Babar Baboli wrote:
I flyt an arty Maelstrom för L4s and I only have around 9m SP and it works just fine.
Rarely have to warp out of missions (the blockade and worlds collide are the only tricky ones)

T2 drones is a _must_ though

[Maelstrom, Arty Mael]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Domination 100MN Afterburner
'Copasetic' Particle Field Acceleration
X-Large Shield Booster II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Hobgoblin II x10
Hammerhead II x5


I use the domination AB since it use less cap and brings a bit more speed.


Might try this fit, seems to have a bit better tank. What CPU implant do you have? Even with "All level V" in EFT it's 12 above the maximum.

Daniel Plain wrote:
Xawiahn Kabej wrote:
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Xawiahn_Kabej there you go. Hope that helps in some way.


after seeing your skillset i can understand even less how you could possibly have problems tanking. my only wild guess is that you fly against gurista and sit still while they are lobbing missiles at you. but even then you would have to shoot a few triggers to get in trouble.


I probably did by mistake. I can't really remember much more than me getting my ass handed to me.
Iteken Hotori
The Flowing Penguins
#28 - 2012-04-18 14:31:21 UTC
Babar Baboli wrote:
I flyt an arty Maelstrom för L4s and I only have around 9m SP and it works just fine.
Rarely have to warp out of missions (the blockade and worlds collide are the only tricky ones)

T2 drones is a _must_ though

[Maelstrom, Arty Mael]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Domination 100MN Afterburner
'Copasetic' Particle Field Acceleration
X-Large Shield Booster II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Hobgoblin II x10
Hammerhead II x5


I use the domination AB since it use less cap and brings a bit more speed.


From plenty of experience i'd recommend the following:
1. Drop the Arties and replace them with 800mm Autocannons. Artillery is terrible for PvE.
2. drop the invulns and use 3mission specific hardeners. 1x active primary damage type, 1 passive primary damage type and 1 secondary
3. Drop the AB and fit a Large Cap injector with 800's. carry 5k rounds in your hold, and fill the rest with boosters.

4. rally, really don't use artillery. it's absolutely awful for everything at the moment. with average skills and 2x TE your AC's will hit out to 60km, doing much better DPS. You should still alpha frigates.,

5. skill up for / save to a vargur

gl.
Orlacc
#29 - 2012-04-18 15:37:29 UTC
Mael was made for ACs.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

Gorenaire
Theosophical Society
#30 - 2012-04-18 17:52:03 UTC
Go for the Maelstrom, its a much better choice than the Raven in the long run, instant dmg,, very good shield boosting, decent drones bay .

To use it decently, you will need matari BS at 4support gunnery skills at 4, large projectiles at 4,shield and energy skills at 4, and T2 light mediums drones.

Once you re there, train shield ops , energy ops,shield and energy management to 5, then go for rapid fire and motion prediction to 5 then T2 large AC.

Once you re there, you can push to the Vargur, which is an awsome ship or the Machariel, which rocks as well.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#31 - 2012-04-18 18:11:59 UTC
The mael is better for most situations, I do like the Ravens long range performance, but I have found that in missions with really long engagement ranges (usually ones where you can warp to 100km and only have to kill a specific target) the arty mael performs almost as well.

For normal missions though, I recommend 800s and some tracking enhancers, your range will still be decent, the falloff you gain is pretty neat. I personally use cap boosters for my maelstrom tank, because you can usually kill things before they can get to you, and you don't have to fool with all these cap mods, just to get a 2 minute tank.

Also, I wouldn't bother with faction/t2 ammo for an AC mael, the ammo consumption on this thing is absolutely astounding.
Archa4 Badasaz
Vangazhi
#32 - 2012-04-18 19:09:32 UTC
IMHO:
Raven is a bad ship. I used it for 2 days, and got almost blown up 2 or 3 times.
You HAVE to buy CNR. Much better. And of course you need to buff your capacitor skillz and get the T2 hardeners.
At first you can use T2 fit, but with few Deadspace items you can make it capstable and on most missions not worry about tank at all.
Celeritas 5k
Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus
#33 - 2012-04-18 20:13:50 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
As someone who trained T2 Cruise Missiles and used Ravens/CNRs extensively, with good skills they are pretty awesome at PvE simply because many rats spawn at pretty extreme ranges, a high end CNR with implants will project 800+ dps with its missiles to 122 km lock range, 100% damage to BCs and BSs (you can tell by the consistency of volley damage) and around 90% to cruisers if your tp cycles lucky, no gun BS will ever have that kind of damage projection at that range. Also, 100% damage selection is HUGE in PvE cause you always know whats best, anyone who has used lasers on Angels will know.

However, 2 important things I think makes gun (specifically projectile) boats good, 1 popping frigs at range w/ low transversal, pretty big because when spawns are far away, I often kill everything but the frigs, and then I have to wait for them to come into drone range and let my drones kill them one by one, which takes time (also frigs web making gate crawls even more painful). Secondly, gate crawling, its a huge part of L4s and some lucrative missions involves gate crawls, which is why the Mach is so awesome, it has cruiser speed, less so for the Mael, but I've flown the tempest in missions and its pretty decent if theres a long gate crawl.


In my experience, missiles are way worse at applying damage to small targets even if you are running TPs. My vindi does 700 DPS out to its lock range (100km with a sebo) and almost breaks 1k inside 30km (not counting drones, I usually don't even bother with them), with enough tracking to hit cruisers orbiting at 20k. It was expensive, but no more so than a deadspace fit CNR.

It absolutely shreds frigs and cruisers at around 40k while they approach, I'm talking half-volley some cruisers and most frigs; sometimes i get lucky and 1-volley BCs with low transversal inside 30 km. Interestingly I have the most trouble tracking merc battleships that orbit at 6km, but a little manual flying solves that problem beautifully.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-04-18 20:15:21 UTC
Iteken Hotori wrote:
Babar Baboli wrote:
I flyt an arty Maelstrom för L4s and I only have around 9m SP and it works just fine.
Rarely have to warp out of missions (the blockade and worlds collide are the only tricky ones)

T2 drones is a _must_ though

[Maelstrom, Arty Mael]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Domination 100MN Afterburner
'Copasetic' Particle Field Acceleration
X-Large Shield Booster II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L
1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Hobgoblin II x10
Hammerhead II x5


I use the domination AB since it use less cap and brings a bit more speed.


From plenty of experience i'd recommend the following:
1. Drop the Arties and replace them with 800mm Autocannons. Artillery is terrible for PvE.
2. drop the invulns and use 3mission specific hardeners. 1x active primary damage type, 1 passive primary damage type and 1 secondary
3. Drop the AB and fit a Large Cap injector with 800's. carry 5k rounds in your hold, and fill the rest with boosters.

4. rally, really don't use artillery. it's absolutely awful for everything at the moment. with average skills and 2x TE your AC's will hit out to 60km, doing much better DPS. You should still alpha frigates.,

5. skill up for / save to a vargur

gl.

With no AB and AC's do you not have any issues with targets staying at range?
Skurja Volpar
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#35 - 2012-04-20 10:53:34 UTC
[Maelstrom, New Setup 1]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Large Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
EM Ward Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
100MN Afterburner II

800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I


Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5

This worked for me for months and is a reasonably standard fit. With BS to 5 you could think about dropping the SBA for a TC but if your having tanking trouble you should definately keep it.

Hardeners are rat specific and you should keep 2 of each damage type in your cargo. Im sure XL boosters work fine too but I've always used large and done fine.

People seem to love putting cap boosters on the mael but with CCCs and smart SB use it is not required, even with 2.5 minites of cap time.

The AB is nonessential and maybe the slot would be better with a TC but the mael is painfully flow at the best of times.
Raziel Walker
NPC Tax Evasion Corp
#36 - 2012-04-20 12:32:58 UTC
I prefer a raven over maelstrom for missions simply because of the range.
AC maelstroms lack range while Arty maelstroms feel as if they lack dps.
Ravens allow better damage type selection.
Ravens have less tank but keeping range can mitigate a lot of damage.
Maelstroms are better at popping small stuff that is still coming at you.
Tech 2 cruise missiles have a use in PVE.
Tech 2 guns have a use in situations where you want to kill somehing.

Fitting rat specific hardeners makes a huge difference. As does looking at a site like eve surival or mission reports to make sure you don't spawn everything.

Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-04-20 19:36:12 UTC
Xawiahn Kabej wrote:
I know this has been asked a lot of times before, but after using a maelstrom, with my 12mil SP, to do some level 4 missions (a modified version of this since I don't have the cash for the republic gyros) I feel that the tank isn't nearly strong enough to withstand the damage thrown at it, not even whilst boosting.
Once I lost my maelstrom because my drones couldn't kill the warp scramblers faster than my tank was dropping. Because of this I have been reluctant to do any missions alone lately, in fear of losing another ship.

After looking around the net for a bit it I got the impression that the raven was a "much" better ship than maelstrom and started to train towards it.
As off late I've looked around a bit more and it seems like the raven isn't much better than the maelstrom and when comparing my maelstrom fit with a raven fit in EFT, it looks like the tank for the raven is even worse than my maelstrom.

My question is, should I continue to train for a raven in hope that level 4s won't be as hard, or should I continue with my maelstrom?
I don't mind spending more time on a mission as long as I can decrease the risk of losing my ship.


I used to use that exact same loudout at 2mil SP and I had no problems.

If you're not able to tank it... I seriously don't know what you're doing wrong. Are you using rat-specific hardeners and eve-survival?

Get a Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster, it's some 200 mil isk, but it's slightly more efficient and a lot more powerful than the basic tech 2 version.
Kalli Brixzat
#38 - 2012-04-21 05:58:06 UTC
Celeritas 5k wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
As someone who trained T2 Cruise Missiles and used Ravens/CNRs extensively, with good skills they are pretty awesome at PvE simply because many rats spawn at pretty extreme ranges, a high end CNR with implants will project 800+ dps with its missiles to 122 km lock range, 100% damage to BCs and BSs (you can tell by the consistency of volley damage) and around 90% to cruisers if your tp cycles lucky, no gun BS will ever have that kind of damage projection at that range. Also, 100% damage selection is HUGE in PvE cause you always know whats best, anyone who has used lasers on Angels will know.

However, 2 important things I think makes gun (specifically projectile) boats good, 1 popping frigs at range w/ low transversal, pretty big because when spawns are far away, I often kill everything but the frigs, and then I have to wait for them to come into drone range and let my drones kill them one by one, which takes time (also frigs web making gate crawls even more painful). Secondly, gate crawling, its a huge part of L4s and some lucrative missions involves gate crawls, which is why the Mach is so awesome, it has cruiser speed, less so for the Mael, but I've flown the tempest in missions and its pretty decent if theres a long gate crawl.


In my experience, missiles are way worse at applying damage to small targets even if you are running TPs. My vindi does 700 DPS out to its lock range (100km with a sebo) and almost breaks 1k inside 30km (not counting drones, I usually don't even bother with them), with enough tracking to hit cruisers orbiting at 20k. It was expensive, but no more so than a deadspace fit CNR.

It absolutely shreds frigs and cruisers at around 40k while they approach, I'm talking half-volley some cruisers and most frigs; sometimes i get lucky and 1-volley BCs with low transversal inside 30 km. Interestingly I have the most trouble tracking merc battleships that orbit at 6km, but a little manual flying solves that problem beautifully.



I agree with much of what Celeritas stated. The Raven/CNR is an excellent bird. The sheer ability to project your DPS to a range where most mission rats can't even hit you is invaluable. There are missions vs. certain rats where I could literally remove my tank mods and for ***** and giggles. I wouldn't need them.

Yes, the lack of instant damage sucks. But, over the long haul, it doesn't matter because the DPS will balance out. I love the feeling of having 2+ flights in the air and being able to switch to a new target.

As for the damage to smaller ships...who cares? I'm generally not shooting at anything smaller than a battlecruisers. That's what drones are for. My 5 T2 Hammerheads can handle all that.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-05-18 15:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Marc Callan
Fit the proper hardeners and weapons, and the Mael can run most missions like a champion. Keys:
  • Use an XL shield booster, but pulse it; don't perma-run it.
  • T2 medium and light drones for cruisers and frigates, respectively.
  • Fit hardeners according to the mission. Common fit for Guristas, for example, might be 2 thermal, 2 kinetic, letting you absorb over 1000 DPS in short bursts with your booster running.
  • Swap out your weapons depending on what you're facing. For close-range hostiles like Angels, 800mm autocannons will tear them apart. For rats that like to hold at range, like Guristas, 1200mm or 1400mm artillery will work wonderfully on their battlecruisers and battleships. 1200's are easier to fit while you're training up, and do roughly similar DPS to the 1400's, but use ammo twice as fast. 800's are easiest to fit, but go through ammo like water.
  • If you're worried about your tank, fit a Damage Control in one of your lows. You may sacrifice one gyro or tracking enhancer, but if you screw up a mission and your tank does get broken, the DC's hull resistances will mean the difference between bringing a battered flaming ship back to station, and coming home in a pod. Plus, bonuses to armor and shield resistances without stacking penalties.

  • Special note: in missions where the rats throw ECM at you, the massive alpha damage that you get from 1400's is a lifesaver, and, oddly enough, the long cycle time of the cannons works for you in that case. With autocannons, you lose a lot of DPS for every second you're jammed out; with 1400's, there's a chance the jam cycle will end and allow you to re-lock before your guns have cycled for the next shot, and at worst, you lose maybe five or ten seconds.

    Plus, one-hit-kills on battlecruisers, and three-hit kills on battleships. With T1 guns, even. Even if they're stood off at 50km or more. (Yeah, tactical says your optimal's only out to 35km or so with the short-range ammo types, but that massive falloff means that if you can lock it, there's a better-than-even chance you can hit it respectably.)

    "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt

    Nicolai Xperte
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #40 - 2012-05-21 11:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolai Xperte
    I use this for all missions due to the omni tank setup I do not have change hardeners and with implants can 2 volley most cruisers and bc's. Some missions it seems that the smaller ships are the one putting out the primary dps so I almost always wipe them out first then the BS. A bit pricey but I had ran incursions for a bit and had nothing else to spend isk on so I bought the good stuff lol. If money is tight you can try out the standard t2 invul's and t2 BCS. I recommend thou using this setup is when you initially warp just pick an object and orbit it doesnt matter what range just as long as your moving that will help mitigate incoming dps.
    Raven Navy Issue

    7x Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher (Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile)

    Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
    Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
    2x Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
    Photon Scattering Field II
    Heat Dissipation Field II

    3x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
    2x Power Diagnostic System II

    Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
    2x Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

    10x Warrior II
    5x Hobgoblin II
    5x Hobgoblin II

    Implants
    Slot 1-5 LG Crystal
    Slot 6 CM-603
    Slot 7 SM-703
    Slot 8 GP-805
    Slot 9 TN-903
    Slot 10 RL 1005

    EHP 88,110 (Tanks 1,362 dps)
    DPS 716.76
    1m 28s Cap

    I don't always bring out my Absolution.

    But when I do it makes the Blue's rage, lol.

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