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Margin Trade Scam Possible fix ?
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Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-04-12 15:24:29 UTC
(…except that it is either hugely exploitable, which affects everyone and breaks the game; or it requires a completely unreasonable metagaming mechanic that affects everyone and breaks the game. Either way, you are not actually addressing any kind of problem, and your solutions only introduce new problems that need to be fixed. This means your idea is bad. Go back to the drawing board, and this time, start by figuring out what the problem is that you want to solve — unless you have a problem, you can't have a solution.)


well your good at saying (except that it is either hugely exploitable) and stuff like (breaks the game) but your cant say ... how ?..... you just say it will brake things but how what ? big words little thought ... explain what real problems it will casue instead of repeating it will brake ,exploitable, problems give us an e.g.
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-04-12 15:25:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vengorin
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
the scam preys on new players get it into your thick skulls .....

And that is a good thing, again, welcome to Eve online Lol

*EDIT: Also, you know that awkward moment when you aren't quite sure if someone is really, really dumb or really, really good at trolling? Kind of having that right now.


good bye from eve online player base never grows only shrinks ... goodbye eve

typical sarcasm... .. you know its the lowest form of wit ....
MushroomMushroom
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-04-12 15:26:58 UTC  |  Edited by: MushroomMushroom
The change I would propose would still allow margin trade scamming, but would increase the risk to the scammer.

Currently, you put up 25% of the total order amount, pay your market fees, and when someone tries to fill your order and the margin check fails, the order cancels and your out only the market fees.

Instead, the seller (who is likely being scammed) should have 25% of their goods purchased using the 25% deposit if, and only if, the sellers full order would cause the order to fail due to margin. You could still margin trade, the risks/reward matrix for the scammer would just be more balanced.
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-04-12 15:30:25 UTC
MushroomMushroom wrote:
The change I would propose would still allow margin trade scamming, but would increase the risk to the scammer.

Currently, you put up 25% of the total order amount, pay your market fees, and when someone tries to fill your order and the margin check fails, the order cancels and your out only the market fees.

Instead, the seller (who is likely being scammed) should have 25% of their goods purchased using the 25% deposit if, and only if, the sellers full order would cause the order to fail due to margin. You could skill margin trade, the risks/reward matrix for the scammer would just be more balanced.


funny the only sensable justifible comments with E.g. come from peole wanting to fix it.. people that dont make well use big words saying it will brake things .. or make digs... hmm
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#45 - 2012-04-12 15:35:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vengorin wrote:
well your good at saying (except that it is either hugely exploitable) and stuff like (breaks the game) but your cant say ... how ?
I did. You should try reading it. Roll

Letting people go into negative wallet breaks the game because a negative wallet renders your character useless. This is not a suitable punishment for legitimate gameplay.
Restricting what people can do with their accounts is to let the game affect real life. This is not suitable punishment for legitimate gameplay.

Your solutions are bad.
You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Quote:
funny the only sensable justifible comments with E.g. come from peole wanting to fix it
They're not sensible — they just agree with your stance. Likewise, the other comments are no insensible — they just don't agree with you. You need to learn to separate those two things.

Like yours, his solution doesn't address any actual problem.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-04-12 15:39:41 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
MushroomMushroom wrote:
The change I would propose would still allow margin trade scamming, but would increase the risk to the scammer.

Currently, you put up 25% of the total order amount, pay your market fees, and when someone tries to fill your order and the margin check fails, the order cancels and your out only the market fees.

Instead, the seller (who is likely being scammed) should have 25% of their goods purchased using the 25% deposit if, and only if, the sellers full order would cause the order to fail due to margin. You could skill margin trade, the risks/reward matrix for the scammer would just be more balanced.


funny the only sensable justifible comments with E.g. come from peole wanting to fix it.. people that dont make well use big words saying it will brake things .. or make digs... hmm

You're lucky you got any constructive response at all. Your idea breaks the game because I could create and alt, have him set up a bunch of bullshit buy orders and then generate free isk by completing them with my main. (100 billion isk trit anyone?) Thanks to the buddy program I could keep creating new characters to take advantage of this without having to pay for a second account. IMO the skill is ******** and should be removed, but it doesn't bother me enough to make a thread about it.
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-04-12 15:40:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
well your good at saying (except that it is either hugely exploitable) and stuff like (breaks the game) but your cant say ... how ?
I did. You should try reading it. Roll

Letting people go into negative wallet breaks the game because a negative wallet renders your character useless. This is not a suitable punishment for legitimate gameplay.
Restricting what people can do with their accounts is to let the game affect real life. This is not suitable punishment for legitimate gameplay.

Your solutions are bad.
You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.


it wont do be stupid ... you can make money from the start of the game ... it would set you back a lot yes... no dif then being podded with out a suttible clone lose skill points lvl 5 skill's .. set back = get back on your feet ... true fair traders wont suffer much at all if there useing the skill the way its ment to be used ( dont fly a ship you dont have the skills for or cant afford) scamers abuse stops end of
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#48 - 2012-04-12 15:41:14 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
typical sarcasm... .. you know its the lowest form of wit ....

And yet it is a form of wit.

Your posts, however, are akin to reading the autobiography of a chimpanzee on acid.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#49 - 2012-04-12 15:43:55 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
[quote=Tippia]
it wont do be stupid ... you can make money from the start of the game ... it would set you back a lot yes... no dif then being podded with out a suttible clone lose skill points lvl 5 skill's .. set back = get back on your feet ... true fair traders wont suffer much at all if there useing the skill the way its ment to be used ( dont fly a ship you dont have the skills for or cant afford) scamers abuse stops end of


you still didnt answer my question from before. WHAT THE F*CK IS A FAIR TRADER??
In eve people always try to rip off others if they only get a chance. Deal with it!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#50 - 2012-04-12 15:48:38 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
it wont do be stupid
Then stop being it and start listening instead.

Quote:
true fair traders
You can stop using that term — it is meaningless. And they will indeed suffer from the gamebreaking changes you're suggesting, especially since you're suggesting them for no reason.


So let's start over: what is the problem you're trying to solve here? Why is it a problem?
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-04-12 15:49:24 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
[quote=Tippia]
it wont do be stupid ... you can make money from the start of the game ... it would set you back a lot yes... no dif then being podded with out a suttible clone lose skill points lvl 5 skill's .. set back = get back on your feet ... true fair traders wont suffer much at all if there useing the skill the way its ment to be used ( dont fly a ship you dont have the skills for or cant afford) scamers abuse stops end of


you still didnt answer my question from before. WHAT THE F*CK IS A FAIR TRADER??
In eve people always try to rip off others if they only get a chance. Deal with it!

I think a "fair trader" is someone who sets up legit buy orders. (Wihch is any buy order with a minimum quantity of 1)
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#52 - 2012-04-12 15:53:04 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
MushroomMushroom wrote:
The change I would propose would still allow margin trade scamming, but would increase the risk to the scammer.

Currently, you put up 25% of the total order amount, pay your market fees, and when someone tries to fill your order and the margin check fails, the order cancels and your out only the market fees.

Instead, the seller (who is likely being scammed) should have 25% of their goods purchased using the 25% deposit if, and only if, the sellers full order would cause the order to fail due to margin. You could skill margin trade, the risks/reward matrix for the scammer would just be more balanced.


funny the only sensable justifible comments with E.g. come from peole wanting to fix it.. people that dont make well use big words saying it will brake things .. or make digs... hmm

You're lucky you got any constructive response at all. Your idea breaks the game because I could create and alt, have him set up a bunch of bullshit buy orders and then generate free isk by completing them with my main. (100 billion isk trit anyone?) Thanks to the buddy program I could keep creating new characters to take advantage of this without having to pay for a second account. IMO the skill is ******** and should be removed, but it doesn't bother me enough to make a thread about it.



ok thanks now a good point thank you.... at least your talking sence and makeing good exsamples ... ok what if people had to put items / ships / goods = to the other 76% as depossit with the 24%... they become locked.. untill full ammount is paid ?
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-04-12 15:53:51 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
[quote=Tippia]
it wont do be stupid ... you can make money from the start of the game ... it would set you back a lot yes... no dif then being podded with out a suttible clone lose skill points lvl 5 skill's .. set back = get back on your feet ... true fair traders wont suffer much at all if there useing the skill the way its ment to be used ( dont fly a ship you dont have the skills for or cant afford) scamers abuse stops end of


you still didnt answer my question from before. WHAT THE F*CK IS A FAIR TRADER??
In eve people always try to rip off others if they only get a chance. Deal with it!

I think a "fair trader" is someone who sets up legit buy orders. (Wihch is any buy order with a minimum quantity of 1)


sry i mean some one who is not abuseing the skill
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-04-12 15:55:22 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
typical sarcasm... .. you know its the lowest form of wit ....

And yet it is a form of wit.

Your posts, however, are akin to reading the autobiography of a chimpanzee on acid.


donkys have wit same as most lower forms of life
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#55 - 2012-04-12 16:00:38 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
[quote=Tippia]
it wont do be stupid ... you can make money from the start of the game ... it would set you back a lot yes... no dif then being podded with out a suttible clone lose skill points lvl 5 skill's .. set back = get back on your feet ... true fair traders wont suffer much at all if there useing the skill the way its ment to be used ( dont fly a ship you dont have the skills for or cant afford) scamers abuse stops end of


you still didnt answer my question from before. WHAT THE F*CK IS A FAIR TRADER??
In eve people always try to rip off others if they only get a chance. Deal with it!

I think a "fair trader" is someone who sets up legit buy orders. (Wihch is any buy order with a minimum quantity of 1)


sry i mean some one who is not abuseing the skill


who is abusing the skill??
The skill is valid and its there, exactly for the purpose of creating orders you dont have money for. Utilizing something for the intended purpose is not abuse.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#56 - 2012-04-12 16:04:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vengorin wrote:
sry i mean some one who is not abuseing the skill
So that would be everyone, then?

Again: what problem are you trying to solve here?
Quote:
ok what if people had to put items / ships / goods = to the other 76% as depossit with the 24%... they become locked.. untill full ammount is paid ?
That would directly defeat the purpose of the skill — to place orders you cannot fully pay for yet.
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-04-12 16:06:26 UTC
can you stop repeating your selfs.... stuck on reply... talking about the skill as a hole messing with things as a hole.. or people just useing it for the kicks or useing it on a small wide spread scale witch it was not ment for
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#58 - 2012-04-12 16:08:21 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
can you stop repeating your selfs.... stuck on reply... talking about the skill as a hole messing with things as a hole.. or people just useing it for the kicks or useing it on a small wide spread scale witch it was not ment for


stop pretending to know what things are for. you are not CCP.
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-04-12 16:21:33 UTC
http://eve.grismar.net/wikka.php?wakka=tradeskills



Margin Trading

By default you have to place the entire isk-value of a buy order in market escrow (this has nothing to do with regular escrow) if you're putting one up. With Margin Trading you can reduce this amount. Instead of having to pay it all when you put up the order, you pay the remainder when someone actually sells you something. Each level of Margin Trading takes 25% off. So, at level I, you still have to pay 75%, at level II it's 56.25%, at III it's 42.18%, at IV it's 31.64% and ultimately at level V it's 23.73%.
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-04-12 16:23:41 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
http://eve.grismar.net/wikka.php?wakka=tradeskills



Margin Trading

By default you have to place the entire isk-value of a buy order in market escrow (this has nothing to do with regular escrow) if you're putting one up. With Margin Trading you can reduce this amount. Instead of having to pay it all when you put up the order, you pay the remainder when someone actually sells you something. Each level of Margin Trading takes 25% off. So, at level I, you still have to pay 75%, at level II it's 56.25%, at III it's 42.18%, at IV it's 31.64% and ultimately at level V it's 23.73%.




Margin Trading - reduces the amount you need to place in escrow for each buy order by 25%. This allows you to place large buy orders without cleaning out your wallet. You sell the items as they come in, covering the ISK you need for the remaining escrow. This skill gives you the opportunity place more orders with the same amount of ISK in your wallet and reduces the number of orders you have to place and manage, freeing up time for other things.