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Margin Trade Scam Possible fix ?
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Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-04-12 12:02:08 UTC
Margin Tradeing Scam i understand the necessity for fair tradeing but the scam its self is about as unfair as it
gets easy cash no penalty i lost my entire months isk to this scam not thru being nieve, stupid or dumb but for not
knowing such a thing would exist 1 month in the game and i lost it all. how on earth can this be allowed its like
selling items on the market that u dont own and receiveing the isk but no one reciveing any goods.

contract yes fine scam fine look 1st fine Ransom fine we know what they are we how they work but this is sick
a good means to fix this with out removeing the skill or its purpose here is my idea

players that place buy orders on the market useing the margin trade skill should allways receive the goods to there
order if the isk is not in the wallet to meet the bill then it needs to move to a corp wallet for the funds.
if there still is not the isk then ccp should pay the order for them but put a bad credit rateing
on them untill they pay back what they owe and it needs to be an auto bill that will be taken out any time there is
any isk in a player/corp Wallet also place a ban on the player buying anything on the market (not Selling) untill
the bill is paid in full.

along with this they need to make it that a player cant delete a char with a bad
credit rateing or create a new one untill the bill is paid.

befor you say stop moaning and i was stupid to fall for it thats not the case i am very new to eve. those of you
that might say that are the ones doing it and saying its part of the game is coz your makeing a lot of isk doing it

its not a Trader way of life its not Pirate way of life .... in my views its about as low and sly as scum can get

(Why is takeing Candy from a baby so easy ? Dumb, stupid, slow ? no the baby has no understanding of the world
around it.)

(what is wrong with takeing candy from a baby ? well is there a challenge no !can the baby take it back no!
do you realy feel proud of your self ???)
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#2 - 2012-04-12 12:13:34 UTC
what? You wanted to scam someone but got scammed yourself instead, then go to forums and complain about it?? lol
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-04-12 12:17:30 UTC
typical reply.

new to eve 1 month in the game good deal on market dont know or understand whats needed by a player and whats not im not to know peoples reasons for wanting goods/items....
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-04-12 12:19:18 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
what? You wanted to scam someone but got scammed yourself instead, then go to forums and complain about it?? lol



let me guess your one of the people doing it right ?
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-04-12 12:54:18 UTC
also to add moaning is 1 thing thinking of a possible solution to fix the problem is another witch is what i have done i have accepted i have been scamed.

but just let me point something else out with the nature of people doing things just for the kicks whos to say what is a real buy order on the market and what not im sure this has messed with lots of traders many of times traveling for long lenths of time with huge loads just to find they cant sell the goods due to a fake buy order... yes the scam can be spotted but whos to say people dont do it on a smaller scale with not massive price difrences just lots of the goods spread over a fair few jumps and lots of them

who to say anything you buy to resell will be a fake ... margin trade scam will ruin many asspects of the trader role in many ways and unless its fixed matter will get worse as time goes on people will wise up to it and people doing it will wise up to them till the point where tradeing will be a worthless profession
Spy 21
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-04-12 13:03:49 UTC
Sorry you lost your isk.

Every aspect to the game serves it's purpose. Getting scammed as a 1 month player in fact does have it's long term benefit, it teaches the victim what NOT to do... small comfort I know.

But imagine how much worse it would be for you as a 2 year player and need to learn that lesson from the perspective of a wallet measured in 10's of billions instead of 10's of millions.

Scamming is actually an advertised part of the game.

Obfuscation for the WIN on page 3...
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-04-12 13:08:09 UTC
thank your for a sensable commet nice to see. yes i do agree with 100% its what makes eve the way it is and yes i have lernt a good lesson. but

it dont change the fact of the problems this will cause over the long run and its not a nice way to welcome new players to the game it will drive most players away
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-04-12 13:14:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Verity Sovereign
This is not the way margin trading works IRL.

I support fixing it.

IRL, if a margin is called and you can't cough up the funds, you are in trouble - ie your assets will be seized by the government and sold off during your bankruptcy hearings.

If someone doesn't have the ISK to cover a sell order, the sell order should still go through, and the person should get a negative balance that must be rectified within X days, or items that the person has in an NPC station will be randomly seized and sold to the highest buy order available until the balance is paid off.
(During that time, there should also be restrictions on the ability to move or contract certain assets, to prevent a toon from hiding all their assets in that time window by transfering them to an alt)

Another way would be to put liens on all payments received by the deadbeat margin trader.

Ie: "Oh, you just sold a CN invuln field for 500 million, well two days ago you had a margin buy order you couldn't cover - you were 250mill short, so we're taking 260 million from your latest sale, and giving it to the seller.
Yes, he gets a 10 million ISK fee because of your late payment."
(again, certain restrictions would need to be put in place to prevent selling all assets to an alt at very low cost- ie laundering the assets)

There should also be some "approximate net worth" calculator, that prevents a toon from placing huge orders, that even after total asset seizure, could not come close to covering the margin call.
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-04-12 13:24:51 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
This is not the way margin trading works IRL.

I support fixing it.

IRL, if a margin is called and you can't cough up the funds, you are in trouble - ie your assets will be seized by the government and sold off during your bankruptcy hearings.

If someone doesn't have the ISK to cover a sell order, the sell order should still go through, and the person should get a negative balance that must be rectified within X days, or items that the person has in an NPC station will be randomly seized and sold to the highest buy order available until the balance is paid off.

Another way would be to put liens on all payments received by the deadbeat margin trader.

Ie: "Oh, you just sold a CN invuln field for 500 million, well two days ago you had a margin buy order you couldn't cover - you were 250mill short, so we're taking 260 million from your latest sale, and giving it to the seller.
Yes, he gets a 10 million ISK fee because of your late payment."


again thanks a good reply ... let me say this to

if ccp were to add a new large shield booster that made u invincible from all damage pvp/pve at the cost off 1000 cap per 2 sec and stoped when you ran out of cap.... but by chance if you were to e.g. start the booster at the same time put offline a cap battery it would make it last forever and not stop running would this be acceptable ?
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#10 - 2012-04-12 13:44:13 UTC
I originally thought the same thing, that MT scamming should put the person's wallet negative, but then someone pointed out the possibility of getting free infinite ISK by making an alt sell stuff like that and then just trashing the alt afterwards.

Since then I've realized that a better way to do it is to simply not allow you to put a min buy order for more than the ISK you've already put down for the stuff (rounded down). For instance, if you're trying to 'buy' 100 units of something, but you only have 75% of the money down, you can't put the min amount above 750 units.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#11 - 2012-04-12 13:53:13 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
This is not the way margin trading works IRL.

I support fixing it.

IRL, if a margin is called and you can't cough up the funds, you are in trouble - ie your assets will be seized by the government and sold off during your bankruptcy hearings.
The problem is that it's far too exploitable the way you want to do it — negative wallet is, mechanics-wise, as close to a ban as you can get without actually banning someone for anyone who chooses not to exploit it, and for anyone who does, it's a source of infinite free ISK. Both results are highly undesirable.

The margin trading skill works in a way that all parties are protected from loss, and that's just a better way of making the game fun for everyone. The buyer will not lose any cash and the seller will not lose any items. The scam isn't a problem — it works because people are greedy and don't check the market before investing. It's only right if that comes back to bite them, especially since it's so easy to avoid.
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-04-12 14:12:28 UTC
fixing it the way i have said is fine no problems caused for fair traders the only people it will cause problems for are the margin scamers who just happen to be the problems. it would make people be carefull and not careless... your not going to load a ship full of everything u own and leave it floating about in 0.0 are you your going to be wise and put it somewhere safe
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-04-12 14:19:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Vengorin
everything else has consequences so why should this not be the case here negative ballence dont = ban... it = sell stuff u own go farm mish or mine to pay it back.... and negative ballence should be a 1 time thing even for 1isk once your 1isk or 1bil isk in debt you cant buy anything till its payed off..... not so it keeps building up.

sry ment (cant place any buy orders till its paid off)
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#14 - 2012-04-12 14:21:37 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
everything else has consequences so why should this not be the case here negative ballence dont = ban... it = sell stuff u own go farm mish or mine to pay it back.... and negative ballence should be a 1 time thing even for 1isk once your 1isk or 1bil isk in debt you cant buy anything till its payed off..... not so it keeps building up.


The issue is when someone makes an alt and goes 1B in debt with them to their main and then just biomasses the alt. Suddenly the main has an extra 1B with no consequences.
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-04-12 14:23:49 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
everything else has consequences so why should this not be the case here negative ballence dont = ban... it = sell stuff u own go farm mish or mine to pay it back.... and negative ballence should be a 1 time thing even for 1isk once your 1isk or 1bil isk in debt you cant buy anything till its payed off..... not so it keeps building up.


The issue is when someone makes an alt and goes 1B in debt with them to their main and then just biomasses the alt. Suddenly the main has an extra 1B with no consequences.


read what i said at the start....( players with debts should not be able to delete or create new chars untill its paid)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2012-04-12 14:27:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vengorin wrote:
fixing it the way i have said is fine no problems caused for fair traders the only people it will cause problems for are the margin scamers who just happen to be the problems.
But that's just it: they're not really a problem. They're just scammers who are preying on people's greed, and that's a completely acceptable and legitimate way of playing the game.

You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Quote:
everything else has consequences so why should this not be the case here negative ballence dont = ban... it = sell stuff u own go farm mish or mine to pay it back
…except that you can't do that. With a negative wallet, you can do pretty much nothing. You can undock and shoot stuff (but you'd better hope you don't run out of ammo), and that's about it. You cannot sell your way out of a negative wallet because you cannot afford the sales fees. That's why it's pretty much the same as being banned: you are very effectively crippled — there is pretty much nothing you can do with your character.

And yes, everything has consequences: the consequence of you not checking the market and making unwise and unsafe investments is that you might be scammed out of your money. What you're arguing for is the removal of consequences.

Quote:
players with debts should not be able to delete or create new chars untill its paid
…and that's a completely unreasonable out-of-game restriction imposed as a result of completely legitimate gameplay. Your “solution” just keeps spawning more and more problems, and that's a good sign that it's not a good solution (and that there might not even be a problem to solve to begin with).
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#17 - 2012-04-12 14:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Vengorin wrote:
mxzf wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
everything else has consequences so why should this not be the case here negative ballence dont = ban... it = sell stuff u own go farm mish or mine to pay it back.... and negative ballence should be a 1 time thing even for 1isk once your 1isk or 1bil isk in debt you cant buy anything till its payed off..... not so it keeps building up.


The issue is when someone makes an alt and goes 1B in debt with them to their main and then just biomasses the alt. Suddenly the main has an extra 1B with no consequences.


read what i said at the start....( players with debts should not be able to delete or create new chars untill its paid)

Then we would create new accounts.

*EDIT: Also, HAHAHAHAAHA, SCAMMED OF A MONTHS ISK. AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.






HA.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-04-12 14:37:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
fixing it the way i have said is fine no problems caused for fair traders the only people it will cause problems for are the margin scamers who just happen to be the problems.
But that's just it: they're not really a problem. They're just scammers who are preying on people's greed, and that's a completely acceptable and legitimate way of playing the game.

You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Quote:
everything else has consequences so why should this not be the case here negative ballence dont = ban... it = sell stuff u own go farm mish or mine to pay it back
…except that you can't do that. With a negative wallet, you can do pretty much nothing. You can undock and shoot stuff (but you'd better hope you don't run out of ammo), and that's about it. You cannot sell your way out of a negative wallet because you cannot afford the sales fees.

And yes, everything has consequences: the consequence of you not checking the market and making unwise and unsafe investments is that you might be scammed out of your money. What you're arguing for is the removal of consequences.


still trying to justify a skill that is being misused a fair trader would be wise and careful abuseing the skill would not exist.... and realy people stop looking at the small picture and at the larger scale it will screw trade a lot again ( Whats to stop people placeing fake buy orders all over ones that dont look like a scam)... and im 100% sure people who say its not broken... its fine ... its all good are the ones abuseing it. and greed trade is about buying and selling to make a proffit is that greed ?
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-04-12 14:37:37 UTC
Vengorin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Vengorin wrote:
fixing it the way i have said is fine no problems caused for fair traders the only people it will cause problems for are the margin scamers who just happen to be the problems.
But that's just it: they're not really a problem. They're just scammers who are preying on people's greed, and that's a completely acceptable and legitimate way of playing the game.

You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Quote:
everything else has consequences so why should this not be the case here negative ballence dont = ban... it = sell stuff u own go farm mish or mine to pay it back
…except that you can't do that. With a negative wallet, you can do pretty much nothing. You can undock and shoot stuff (but you'd better hope you don't run out of ammo), and that's about it. You cannot sell your way out of a negative wallet because you cannot afford the sales fees.

And yes, everything has consequences: the consequence of you not checking the market and making unwise and unsafe investments is that you might be scammed out of your money. What you're arguing for is the removal of consequences.


still trying to justify a skill that is being misused a fair trader would be wise and careful abuseing the skill would not exist.... and realy people stop looking at the small picture and at the larger scale it will screw trade a lot again ( Whats to stop people placeing fake buy orders all over ones that dont look like a scam)... and im 100% sure people who say its not broken... its fine ... its all good are the ones abuseing it. and greed trade is about buying and selling to make a proffit is that greed ?
Vengorin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-04-12 14:38:34 UTC
by all means create new accounts pay real cash for a new one every 8-12 days.... or just buy plex ands sell it
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