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Faction Weapons should benefit from specialization skills.
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Altair Raja
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2012-04-11 06:40:30 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm A-Ok with faction weapons getting the use of the spec skill and being able to use T2 ammo.

-Liang

+1

AFK cloaking doesn't earn anything, so it needs a buff!
Flaming Head
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-04-11 07:48:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Flaming Head
Deadspace is better than T2.

Faction is more like T1.5.

Generally:
Use faction until you have the skills to use T2, use T2 until you have the ISK to use deadspace/pirate


[EDIT] Clearly some exceptions exist, but that is why I said 'generally'.
Taria A'nor
Department of Social Security
#23 - 2012-04-11 07:57:15 UTC
So how come with Large Autocannon Spec IV, my tech 2 800mm repeatings do less damage than the faction one? With the same faction EMP?

According to EFT
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#24 - 2012-04-11 08:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Flaming Head wrote:
Deadspace is better than T2.

Faction is more like T1.5.

Generally:
Use faction until you have the skills to use T2, use T2 until you have the ISK to use deadspace/pirate


[EDIT] Clearly some exceptions exist, but that is why I said 'generally'.


That is wrong so often its hardly worth trying to rationalize a rule out of it.

Deadspace items are a very limited item set, and for these items,

armor hardeners, energized nanos, invuln fields armor reppers. invulns. tracking comps. omnis. webs. magstabs. sensor boosters - best faction is better than T2, in offering same stats at better fit, or better stats.

Utility of T2 is availability and price/performance.
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#25 - 2012-04-11 13:47:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Metal Icarus
T1 faction should stay as they are. CCP should add new faction t2 mods like a Caldari Navy Cruise Missle Launcher II, or a Fed Navy Neutron Blaster II.

Only those would be able to benefit off of spec skills.

Just for badassness, a Federation Navy Stasis Webifier II (the sqeekuel).
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#26 - 2012-04-11 15:32:12 UTC
Taria A'nor wrote:
So how come with Large Autocannon Spec IV, my tech 2 800mm repeatings do less damage than the faction one? With the same faction EMP?

According to EFT


But it can't use Barrage, therefore it sucks.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#27 - 2012-04-11 16:21:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Azemar
Flaming Head wrote:
Deadspace is better than T2.

Faction is more like T1.5.

Generally:
Use faction until you have the skills to use T2, use T2 until you have the ISK to use deadspace/pirate


[EDIT] Clearly some exceptions exist, but that is why I said 'generally'.



Except this doesn't apply to turrets, because there are no deadspace turrets (c through x type). You have faction, then it jumps right to officer. Not to mention that even if they existed, the prices would be astronomical. You'd be looking at around 700 mil just for a C-type turret.

Metal Icarus wrote:
T1 faction should stay as they are. CCP should add new faction t2 mods like a Caldari Navy Cruise Missle Launcher II, or a Fed Navy Neutron Blaster II.

Only those would be able to benefit off of spec skills.

Just for badassness, a Federation Navy Stasis Webifier II (the sqeekuel).


Also another great idea I was considering. I was just thinking of the fastest and easiest way to implement it.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#28 - 2012-04-12 02:20:59 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Taria A'nor wrote:
So how come with Large Autocannon Spec IV, my tech 2 800mm repeatings do less damage than the faction one? With the same faction EMP?

According to EFT


Because you have something wrong in your EFT settings?

According to my EFT, with my implanted character, my Vargur gets 956.7 turret DPS with T2 800mm ACs loaded with Rep Fleet Fusion L. That character has Large AC Spec IV.

Switching to faction guns, but keeping the rest of the fit identical and using the same character, turret DPS is 923.

Training Large AC spec to II gets 921.3 DPS for the T2 guns. So, T2 guns outdamage faction at Level III.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2012-04-12 03:45:23 UTC
Azemar wrote:
After a wasted expense, I realized that faction weapons do not benefit from specialization skills (derp). However, why is this? This has probably been mentioned before.

I know this calls into question the entire premise of the faction system, but why should t2's ever do more damage than faction? They cost upwards of 30 times more isk than t2's, and you get fitting bonuses? It seems like this current layout only benefits rich players who don't want to take the time to train, and that's a very low portion.


Thoughts/Criticisms?


Faction items cost more because they offer relatively similar performance to T2 items but without the skill investment the T2 items would require.

T2 items offer allmost faction like performance in most fields for fraction of the cost. The real cost is the skill investment.



Too bad I think your whole post is just another crappy troll .. but im feeling generous and kind.
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#30 - 2012-04-12 03:47:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanthra
Liang Nuren wrote:
Taria A'nor wrote:
So how come with Large Autocannon Spec IV, my tech 2 800mm repeatings do less damage than the faction one? With the same faction EMP?

According to EFT


But it can't use Barrage, therefore it sucks.

-Liang



why would you use barrage for pve?

this can't be pvp, one good bubble or case of falcon faegottry and its 100's of millions in high slots alone on the killmail instead of what 30 mil ish worst case for say 8 large t2 guns at close to 4 mil gouged pricing in a 0.0 isolated station. Cool if you roll like this on bs, me I'd limit this to t3 personally since they gtfo jsut a bit better.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#31 - 2012-04-12 05:16:31 UTC
If they used the spec skills itd be a bonus imo. Then kept the drop rates the same and youd see prices go up for the loot that does drop but ironically if you did it right youd make it so that the faction items available through the LP store MIGHT actually be worth getting then as some of that loot is just stupidly expensive compared to T2 or anything else if you look at tags and LP needed to redeem items. So the only purpose I could see in a change like that is creating a wealth yard stick for the guns, but keeping non T2 ammo a part of it, and creating the ability to set a price ceiling through the faction LP items.

Personally I wouldnt increase the drop rates at all.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#32 - 2012-04-12 05:31:45 UTC
Misanthra wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Taria A'nor wrote:
So how come with Large Autocannon Spec IV, my tech 2 800mm repeatings do less damage than the faction one? With the same faction EMP?

According to EFT


But it can't use Barrage, therefore it sucks.

-Liang



why would you use barrage for pve?

this can't be pvp, one good bubble or case of falcon faegottry and its 100's of millions in high slots alone on the killmail instead of what 30 mil ish worst case for say 8 large t2 guns at close to 4 mil gouged pricing in a 0.0 isolated station. Cool if you roll like this on bs, me I'd limit this to t3 personally since they gtfo jsut a bit better.


Because the range + damage is better than the alternatives. A tricked out Vargur is best off shooting Barrage against Caldari State (for example).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#33 - 2012-04-12 08:52:01 UTC
Taria A'nor wrote:
So how come with Large Autocannon Spec IV, my tech 2 800mm repeatings do less damage than the faction one? With the same faction EMP?

According to EFT
I find it mildly disturbing that players (these days) seem to have an aversion to multiplying two numbers together, rather than blindly relying on EFT...

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/800mm_Repeating_Artillery_II
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Domination_800mm_Repeating_Artillery


But then, maybe I'm just a cantankerous old fart when it comes to people mentioning ‘EFT’… P

On topic, it would only give them just over a 4% edge [over T2], so when you consider the disadvantage of not having T2 ammo, they still wouldn’t be worth using. Maybe as mentioned on the first page; have *good things* happen when faction guns are matched with the correct faction ammo - it would certainly make things more interesting.


War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#34 - 2012-04-12 09:29:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanthra
Liang Nuren wrote:
[quoteBecause the range + damage is better than the alternatives. A tricked out Vargur is best off shooting Barrage against Caldari State (for example).

-Liang


Inresting...not seeing be all that great but to each their own. Me I pack hail to kill structures and if really bored large slow NPC's when down to 2 or 1 on 1, live in a glass house so I don't thro stones lol .




But back to this issue I do have to ask by the time you all for this can buy full racks of this stuff...you all have to be t2 capable or close to it, right? Ima cheap player tbh....I like the fact that say my tengu has gone from full pimp to partial pimp as skills allowed better fits and such. Even better that most of my bling gear was bought cheap and resold for profit. See pimp performance, downgrade a mod, see if still as good. Basically make it as cheap as possible ride as I can. What I done with a lot of rides

Call me jaded I read these threads (ben brought up a few times) and think one of 3 things.

Some of the people who support or put up this idea are avoiding AWU 5 training. Its a pita, I know...but it is worth it.

Some of you need to learn to compromise on your fits. HItting cpu or pg problems with AWU 5 even....its for a reason. CCP kind of wants you to choose between tank or gank. Go uber highs slots, tank gives up some meat. Want to tank standing still....your highs or damage low slot mods need to give up some bang. Don't like this setup...bending or breaking the rule about too many fitting mods being fail an option . If what some think is fail makes you the isk per hour you want..all that matters really. YOu are flying the ship. they aren't lol.


Or some are jsut tired of selling faction ammo and ds gear pretty much buries faction gear (few exceptions ofc) and is usualluy better priced so there goes selling faction tank mods as well . Granted this is due to ccp's jacked dogtag based setup that needs to go or readjust quantity . But till that happens....yeah you can keep your tank mods pretty much. So here some are trying to make faction guns more sellable.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-04-12 12:58:51 UTC
Misanthra wrote:
Some of the people who support or put up this idea are avoiding AWU 5 training. Its a pita, I know...but it is worth it.

Some of you need to learn to compromise on your fits. HItting cpu or pg problems with AWU 5 even....its for a reason.


Faction guns use the same PG as T2, so avoiding AWU 5 has nothing to do with it.
They do use less CPU, but WU 5 is easy to get, it takes less than 5 days starting from lvl 0.

The training I'm still working on, is the medium turrets to lvl 5.
Small turrets to lvl 5 wasn't too bad, and its useful for the ceptors/AF/faction frigs I take into the corp WH.

I don't currently use cruisers or turret BCs much, so I have no desire to get the medium turret skills to lvl 5 and then their spec skills to lvl 4, other than to use the T2 larges in incursions.
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-04-12 13:29:39 UTC
Meh I think they should be allowed to use t2 ammo, but the spec bonus doesnt kick in. Would increase their use, add mod variety. Clear out some LP in peoples closets, and because people are spending on guns may impact the market in other ways as well.

Price does determine a lot of fits. Meaning many times it would be unwise to fit faction guns, due to availability or price compared to t2.

Furthermore faction mods aside from guns already out perform t2, in both fitting AND PERFORMANCE. Yet not everyone faction fits 100% of the time... Why should/would guns be different? Current faction mods also dont curtail use/function of a skill.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#37 - 2012-04-12 13:49:11 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Taria A'nor wrote:
So how come with Large Autocannon Spec IV, my tech 2 800mm repeatings do less damage than the faction one? With the same faction EMP?

According to EFT
I find it mildly disturbing that players (these days) seem to have an aversion to multiplying two numbers together, rather than blindly relying on EFT...

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/800mm_Repeating_Artillery_II
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Domination_800mm_Repeating_Artillery


But then, maybe I'm just a cantankerous old fart when it comes to people mentioning ‘EFT’… P

On topic, it would only give them just over a 4% edge [over T2], so when you consider the disadvantage of not having T2 ammo, they still wouldn’t be worth using. Maybe as mentioned on the first page; have *good things* happen when faction guns are matched with the correct faction ammo - it would certainly make things more interesting.




What the hell are people looking at?

I'm still not seeing this supposed DPS advantage for Faction over T2. It just doesn't exist if you have minimal skills trained. It only takes a couple of hours to get to Large Spec III. Starting at Large Autocannon Specialization III, the 800mm Repeating Artillery II does more DPS than Republic Fleet or Domination 800mm Repeating Artillery.

On a Vargur, a single Domination or Republic Fleet 800mm Repeating Artillery does 220 DPS with All Level V skills and Republic Fleet Fusion L.

On a Vargur, a single 800mm Repeating Artillery II does 232 DPS with All Level V skills and Republic Fleet Fusion L. Dropping Large Autocannon Spec down to Level II still gives the 800mm Repeating Artillery II 219 DPS. At Level III it's doing 224 DPS. At Level IV 228 DPS.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-04-12 14:27:34 UTC
The person you quoted said they would be 4% better with standard ammo *if the spec skills applied to faction guns as well*

As that is not the case, spec skills to 3 gives a 6% bonus, and thus T2 > faction at spec lvl 3 and above, with standard ammo.

Add in the versatility of the T2 range extending ammo....
And faction guns suck in comparision.

They're the last thing to make "shiny" on a ship, if you don't have T2 skills. If you do, the guns never go shiny.

At least for myself and incursions/lvl 4 running:
Get a shiny hull (shiny modules provide drops for gankers, shiny hulls dont)
then:
Get shiny damage mods/shiny web
Then:
Shiny resist mods
Then:
shiny "peripheral mods" (TCs, TPs, TEs, NOS)
Then:
Shiny guns if you don't have T2 by then.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#39 - 2012-04-12 15:58:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
FT Diomedes wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Taria A'nor wrote:
So how come with Large Autocannon Spec IV, my tech 2 800mm repeatings do less damage than the faction one? With the same faction EMP?

According to EFT
I find it mildly disturbing that players (these days) seem to have an aversion to multiplying two numbers together, rather than blindly relying on EFT...

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/800mm_Repeating_Artillery_II
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Domination_800mm_Repeating_Artillery


But then, maybe I'm just a cantankerous old fart when it comes to people mentioning ‘EFT’… P

On topic, it would only give them just over a 4% edge [over T2], so when you consider the disadvantage of not having T2 ammo, they still wouldn’t be worth using. Maybe as mentioned on the first page; have *good things* happen when faction guns are matched with the correct faction ammo - it would certainly make things more interesting.




What the hell are people looking at?

I'm still not seeing this supposed DPS advantage for Faction over T2. It just doesn't exist if you have minimal skills trained. It only takes a couple of hours to get to Large Spec III. Starting at Large Autocannon Specialization III, the 800mm Repeating Artillery II does more DPS than Republic Fleet or Domination 800mm Repeating Artillery.

On a Vargur, a single Domination or Republic Fleet 800mm Repeating Artillery does 220 DPS with All Level V skills and Republic Fleet Fusion L.

On a Vargur, a single 800mm Repeating Artillery II does 232 DPS with All Level V skills and Republic Fleet Fusion L. Dropping Large Autocannon Spec down to Level II still gives the 800mm Repeating Artillery II 219 DPS. At Level III it's doing 224 DPS. At Level IV 228 DPS.
Which is why I said they would only have a 4% edge if you did what the OP suggested...

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#40 - 2012-04-12 16:05:16 UTC
Misanthra wrote:

Inresting...not seeing be all that great but to each their own. Me I pack hail to kill structures and if really bored large slow NPC's when down to 2 or 1 on 1, live in a glass house so I don't thro stones lol .


I'd say the missions went ~50% faster using Barrage, maybe more. I initially hesitated because the damage type was so wrong, but I was pretty happy when I finally caved in. Haven't run missions in a long time though. :)

Quote:

But back to this issue I do have to ask by the time you all for this can buy full racks of this stuff...you all have to be t2 capable or close to it, right? Ima cheap player tbh....I like the fact that say my tengu has gone from full pimp to partial pimp as skills allowed better fits and such. Even better that most of my bling gear was bought cheap and resold for profit. See pimp performance, downgrade a mod, see if still as good. Basically make it as cheap as possible ride as I can. What I done with a lot of rides


I dunno, I had Dominix with a full rack of faction 350s that I missioned with in low sec for a long time. IIRC they were Shadow 350s. At any rate, I held off training Lg Guns for a really really long time.

Quote:

Call me jaded I read these threads (ben brought up a few times) and think one of 3 things.

Some of the people who support or put up this idea are avoiding AWU 5 training. Its a pita, I know...but it is worth it.

Some of you need to learn to compromise on your fits. HItting cpu or pg problems with AWU 5 even....its for a reason. CCP kind of wants you to choose between tank or gank. Go uber highs slots, tank gives up some meat. Want to tank standing still....your highs or damage low slot mods need to give up some bang. Don't like this setup...bending or breaking the rule about too many fitting mods being fail an option . If what some think is fail makes you the isk per hour you want..all that matters really. YOu are flying the ship. they aren't lol.

Or some are jsut tired of selling faction ammo and ds gear pretty much buries faction gear (few exceptions ofc) and is usualluy better priced so there goes selling faction tank mods as well . Granted this is due to ccp's jacked dogtag based setup that needs to go or readjust quantity . But till that happens....yeah you can keep your tank mods pretty much. So here some are trying to make faction guns more sellable.


1. Not me: http://eveboard.com/pilot/Liang_Nuren
2. I'm more interested in the extra DPS potential that would come from faction than the fittings. This goes for both PVE and PVP - though I know some people are so risk averse they'd never use them in PVP. Doesn't mean we all are. :)
3. I don't see anything wrong with faction guns having a use. As it stands, they're totally obsolete* because they can't use faction ammo and do less DPS than T2 at Spec 4. Either way, I don't have a horse in the race because I don't have a way to produce faction guns.

* Faction tachs are actually useful because of cap use + fittings. Also, T2 ammo is much less attractive on Tachs.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.