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Rifters vs Other Frigates - Other Frigates Useless?
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McRoll
Extraction and Exploration Ltd.
#41 - 2012-04-10 17:18:38 UTC
Either you fit to win and try to get the best out of your ship or you can as well fly anything and crap fitted. Each to himself.

Nowadays you pay nearly a million for a T2 gun, so it's no that far off anyway. **** inflation -.-
Xedam Praxis
Repo.
#42 - 2012-04-10 17:20:17 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
Meta 4 Medium Shield Extenders on a tech 1 frigate.

Seriously? You're going to spend 5 million isk on a module for a 300k isk hull?

Balmer Series Tracking Disruptors? Aren't those like 5 million isk too?


I'll drop an exorbitant 5mil if it helps me win a fight.

If a 15mil fit is breaking your wallet you can use a meta 3 MSE and keep it under 10mil; but pop 2 SAR Rifters in that Merlin and you've won the ISK war by 5mil.

You can drop the TD and save 4mil on your 12mil kiting Merlin too, and give up your tankless ship's only defence beside speed; but that's counter productive to winning fights imo.

The "cookie cutter" Rifter comes in at around 10mil -- as do most decently fit solo T1 hulls. If you want to nitpick about 2-5 mil, I guess that's your prerogative. Meanwhile, I'll be throwing that 2-5 mil ISK at my T1 hulls to lavishly fit them for the purpose of winning fights.

“The word of a gentleman is as good as his bond; and sometimes better.”

  • Charles Dickens
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-04-10 17:27:42 UTC
If you're going to use tech 2 and meta 4 mods, use a bloody tech 2 ship. It's not much more expensive but AT LEAST twice as powerful.

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Megos Adriano
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-04-10 17:29:56 UTC
Why did this turn into a discussion of 1v1s? Not to be rude, but I'm asking about how a gang of newbies and semi-newbies with limited funds and skills can take what they can fly (Frigates, maybe some Cruisers) and take down a larger opponent - such as a Hurricane or a Vagabond or any of the other popular gankships.

I appreciate the input about how Hurricanes and Vagabonds are effective anti-frigate boats. This was helpful, important information that will help me decide how to proceed. "Merlin beats Rifter 1v1" is completely unhelpful, but thanks anyway.

And boom goes the dynamite.
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-04-10 17:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Traejun DiSanctis
Aranakas wrote:
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:

BUT - that doesn't mean that it's the only decent frigate for PvP. Not by a long shot. The kestrel, merlin, punisher and executioner are all excellent choices for T1 PvP frigates. I have never been fond of Gallente ships - thus, I don't know much about them - but I presume that there's at least one decent PvP frigate choice there.[/quote

Kestrel, Merlin, EXECUTIONER?!?! GOOD?!

The Kestrel is a little underpowered, but it's as good as missile boats get, I guess. The Merlin takes too many skills to fly well, which defeats the whole point of being a tech 1 frigate; and the Executioner is a fast frigate. Basically an upgraded shuttle

Fly a Vigil if you need a cheap tackler.


I respectfully disagree. I think each of those birds can be very effective in PvP. Is the Rifter better? Sure it is. Is the vigil a cheap tackler? no doubt. Are they the only acceptable T1 frigs to PvP in? Absolutely not

I used to fly a kestrel with great success years ago - often came out on the winning side of 1v1's vs. frigates that were considered "better PvP ships." Low skill requirement. Good speed. Good slots. Just good. Check these to bad boys out
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/57882-Kestrel-A-viable-Brawler.htm
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/55442-THE-pvp-kestrel-kb-proof.htm

The Merlin, while not my favorite frig for PvP (or anything really), is still a very effective bird in 1v1 or fleet action. The skills necessary to get the most out of it are certainly more than, say, a Rifter...but, then again, you needs skills to get the most out of anything. The ability to dictate range with certain fits and apply considerable firepower with a cheap(ish) ship makes the Merlin an excellent choice for Caldari or Minmatar pilots. Check these out
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/57922-Noob-Entry-PVP-Merlin.htm
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/56586-Frigate-duel-Range-control-Merlin.htm

As for the Executioner, it looks great. That's all I've got. A couple pew-pews in the highs. An MWD and Scram/Dis in the mids. Armor and prop stab or overdrive in the lows. Rigs seem like a waste on a ship like this, but if you must, go tank or cap rigs.
Xedam Praxis
Repo.
#46 - 2012-04-10 17:39:41 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
If you're going to use tech 2 and meta 4 mods, use a bloody tech 2 ship. It's not much more expensive but AT LEAST twice as powerful.


You're right. Let's defer to your vast PvP knowledge. Please, share some more...I'm excited to see what else we can learn from you.

“The word of a gentleman is as good as his bond; and sometimes better.”

  • Charles Dickens
Xedam Praxis
Repo.
#47 - 2012-04-10 17:41:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Xedam Praxis
Megos Adriano wrote:
Why did this turn into a discussion of 1v1s? Not to be rude, but I'm asking about how a gang of newbies and semi-newbies with limited funds and skills can take what they can fly (Frigates, maybe some Cruisers) and take down a larger opponent - such as a Hurricane or a Vagabond or any of the other popular gankships.

I appreciate the input about how Hurricanes and Vagabonds are effective anti-frigate boats. This was helpful, important information that will help me decide how to proceed. "Merlin beats Rifter 1v1" is completely unhelpful, but thanks anyway.


Yea, true. Apologies for derailing the thread a bit.

This is the standard SAR Rifter:

[Rifter, New Setup 1]

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Small Nosferatu II

1MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Damage Control II
Small Armor Repairer II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I
[Empty Rig slot]

You can swap the T2 nos and mids out for meta 3/4 and not lose much effect if needed, but the T2 guns are a necessity -- 5-6 of these (flown by new but competent pilots) should be able to handle a single Cane with ease as long as you're communicating to manage CAP and maintain point while being neuted.

Really, the same applies for the any other T1 hull fit.

Step one: Get under guns (500m orbit at top speed).
Step two: Get point (web and scram).
Step three: Kill drones (most important thing to do before even firing on the Cane -- use web if you have to).
Step four: Kill Cane (from this point it's just managing his neuting).

“The word of a gentleman is as good as his bond; and sometimes better.”

  • Charles Dickens
McRoll
Extraction and Exploration Ltd.
#48 - 2012-04-10 17:45:39 UTC
@ Megos

Any ship can take down any other ship if you bring enough numbers. When you compare a ship 1vs1 you can be sure that the winner of this outcome will be at least as useful in groups. I'm just pointing out that Merlin is one of the best , if not THE best T1 frig right now. If you can't use it yet, Rifter and all the other hulls work just as well, it doesn't really matter what you fly if you want to throw a gang of T1 at something bigger.
Megos Adriano
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-04-10 18:00:02 UTC
Xedam Praxis wrote:
Megos Adriano wrote:
Why did this turn into a discussion of 1v1s? Not to be rude, but I'm asking about how a gang of newbies and semi-newbies with limited funds and skills can take what they can fly (Frigates, maybe some Cruisers) and take down a larger opponent - such as a Hurricane or a Vagabond or any of the other popular gankships.

I appreciate the input about how Hurricanes and Vagabonds are effective anti-frigate boats. This was helpful, important information that will help me decide how to proceed. "Merlin beats Rifter 1v1" is completely unhelpful, but thanks anyway.


Yea, true. Apologies for derailing the thread a bit.

This is the standard SAR Rifter:

[Rifter, New Setup 1]

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Small Nosferatu II

1MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Damage Control II
Small Armor Repairer II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I
[Empty Rig slot]

You can swap the T2 nos and mids out for meta 3/4 and not lose much effect if needed, but the T2 guns are a necessity -- 5-6 of these (flown by new but competent pilots) should be able to handle a single Cane with ease as long as you're communicating to manage CAP and maintain point while being neuted.

Really, the same applies for the any other T1 hull fit.

Step one: Get under guns (500m orbit at top speed).
Step two: Get point (web and scram).
Step three: Kill drones (most important thing to do before even firing on the Cane -- use web if you have to).
Step four: Kill Cane (from this point it's just managing his neuting).


Can you swap the armor repper out for a gryo and a webber for a tracking disruptor (at least on 1 or 2 of the frigates?)

And boom goes the dynamite.
Xedam Praxis
Repo.
#50 - 2012-04-10 18:10:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Xedam Praxis
Megos Adriano wrote:
Xedam Praxis wrote:
Megos Adriano wrote:
Why did this turn into a discussion of 1v1s? Not to be rude, but I'm asking about how a gang of newbies and semi-newbies with limited funds and skills can take what they can fly (Frigates, maybe some Cruisers) and take down a larger opponent - such as a Hurricane or a Vagabond or any of the other popular gankships.

I appreciate the input about how Hurricanes and Vagabonds are effective anti-frigate boats. This was helpful, important information that will help me decide how to proceed. "Merlin beats Rifter 1v1" is completely unhelpful, but thanks anyway.


Yea, true. Apologies for derailing the thread a bit.

This is the standard SAR Rifter:

[Rifter, New Setup 1]

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Small Nosferatu II

1MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Damage Control II
Small Armor Repairer II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I
[Empty Rig slot]

You can swap the T2 nos and mids out for meta 3/4 and not lose much effect if needed, but the T2 guns are a necessity -- 5-6 of these (flown by new but competent pilots) should be able to handle a single Cane with ease as long as you're communicating to manage CAP and maintain point while being neuted.

Really, the same applies for the any other T1 hull fit.

Step one: Get under guns (500m orbit at top speed).
Step two: Get point (web and scram).
Step three: Kill drones (most important thing to do before even firing on the Cane -- use web if you have to).
Step four: Kill Cane (from this point it's just managing his neuting).


Can you swap the armor repper out for a gryo and a webber for a tracking disruptor (at least on 1 or 2 of the frigates?)


If you're going to do that, you might as well make them MSE Rifters, like this:

[Rifter, New Setup 2]

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket

1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I

Fitting a TD is going to be pretty useless against larger ships, as you'll most likely be able to get under their guns' tracking ability. If you get neuted without a nos you may have trouble maintaining speed/point -- so juggle those modules as needed to avoid taking damage/losing point on the target (as long as the Cane has no web you should still be able to stay under his guns with your AB off). Be aware that your ACs require no CAP and can continue firing (and clearing drones) regardless of whether you're neuted.

Also, I highly recommend learning Thermodynamics so that you can overheat your modules.

“The word of a gentleman is as good as his bond; and sometimes better.”

  • Charles Dickens
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2012-04-10 19:29:25 UTC
Xedam Praxis wrote:
Aranakas wrote:
If you're going to use tech 2 and meta 4 mods, use a bloody tech 2 ship. It's not much more expensive but AT LEAST twice as powerful.


You're right. Let's defer to your vast PvP knowledge. Please, share some more...I'm excited to see what else we can learn from you.


T2/Meta 4 fit rifter: 20 mil

T2/Meta 4 fit Wolf: 50 mil

And it's ******* 3 times as powerful as a Rifter. If you use expensive mods on a throwaway ship, you deserve to lose your money.

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#52 - 2012-04-10 19:46:30 UTC
In fleets, you can get away with cheaper fits, but don't expect to come out as a winner from 1vs1s with less than perfect fits. In frigate fights with extremely tight margins, every damage and hitpoint counts.

.
Xedam Praxis
Repo.
#53 - 2012-04-10 20:02:43 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
Xedam Praxis wrote:
Aranakas wrote:
If you're going to use tech 2 and meta 4 mods, use a bloody tech 2 ship. It's not much more expensive but AT LEAST twice as powerful.


You're right. Let's defer to your vast PvP knowledge. Please, share some more...I'm excited to see what else we can learn from you.


T2/Meta 4 fit rifter: 20 mil

T2/Meta 4 fit Wolf: 50 mil

And it's ******* 3 times as powerful as a Rifter. If you use expensive mods on a throwaway ship, you deserve to lose your money.


Keep dropping those gems. I can feel myself becoming a master of PvP just reading your wisdom.

“The word of a gentleman is as good as his bond; and sometimes better.”

  • Charles Dickens
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-04-10 22:03:08 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Here's the T1 frig with the best overall dps and ehp.

[Merlin, Solo MSE]

Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket

1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I


114dps (Slightly higher than cookie Rifter)
10.4k ehp (More than double cookie Rifter!!)

Untested. I need to get myself some ISK and rejoin RVB.

The weakness of this fit is that it is slow and has no web. Could it even solo most other frigates, because of this?


That will work against a mwd fit frigate that flies close enough for you to two point it. Against another Ab frig meh. How far out can you hit with null? I'd be concerned about death due to kiting.

I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2012-04-10 22:10:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Aranakas
Xedam Praxis wrote:

Keep dropping those gems. I can feel myself becoming a master of PvP just reading your wisdom.


You do realize that the difference between a cheap Rifter an an expensive Rifter is some 15 million + isk; and a mere 1000 tank/20 DPS, right?

Any Rifter fitted with more than 10 mil isk is a failfit. I bet you PVP in faction gear too.

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Xedam Praxis
Repo.
#56 - 2012-04-10 22:38:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Xedam Praxis
Aranakas wrote:
Xedam Praxis wrote:

Keep dropping those gems. I can feel myself becoming a master of PvP just reading your wisdom.


You do realize that the difference between a cheap Rifter an an expensive Rifter is some 15 million + isk; and a mere 1000 tank/20 DPS, right?

Any Rifter fitted with more than 10 mil isk is a failfit. I bet you PVP in faction gear too.


Says he who posts on his alt. Crawl back under your rock troll...

On the other hand, I'm learning so much about PvP from you...this really is a pickle.

“The word of a gentleman is as good as his bond; and sometimes better.”

  • Charles Dickens
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#57 - 2012-04-10 22:38:42 UTC
Rifters became popular primarily due to their reliance on autocannons, which for a while were significantly more powerful than most other weapon systems since they can't be capped-drained out, had selectable damage types, and had some pretty awesome optimal/falloff/tracking balances. The hull itself isn't necessarily particularly great if it used a different weapon system.

The rifter is also, in many fits, something of a generalist, able to tank a bit, dps a bit, and maintain good speed all at once, whereas other racial frigates tend to be better at one or two on average but worse on the other. That gives you a lot of tactical flexibility, once you figure out your opponent's weak spot you can whack him pretty good by leveraging the area where you're superior.

That said, though, if you have a specific style of flying you prefer a more specialized tier3 frigate may be more effective in your hands. I've actually had a lot of fun with a Tristan used as a heavy dogfighter with a long point and rails/rockets. Likewise you might go Caldari to lay the smack down from range against short-range ships or pick on MWD boats, or the Amarr one to... actually I've never flown the tier3 Amarr frig. The Amarr speed frig is fun, though. Pew pew lasers indeed.

(Also worth noting that recent fixes to Hybrid turrets have made the Atron moderately scary in its own right for dogfighting and tackle, and even straight DPS.)
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#58 - 2012-04-10 22:43:02 UTC
Roime wrote:
In fleets, you can get away with cheaper fits, but don't expect to come out as a winner from 1vs1s with less than perfect fits. In frigate fights with extremely tight margins, every damage and hitpoint counts.



Only really applies to "pistols at dawn" style 1v1 where you set it up in advance. There's a large element of "he who shoots first shoots last" in more spontaneous 1v1, I've gotten owned a number of times by someone in a much cheaper frig because I simply wasn't paying sufficient attention.
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2012-04-11 00:19:31 UTC
Xedam Praxis wrote:


Says he who posts on his alt. Crawl back under your rock troll...

On the other hand, I'm learning so much about PvP from you...this really is a pickle.


This here is an example of someone who is mad that his 10 million fit on a 300 thousand isk hull was questioned, so he resorts to ad-hominem attacks.

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Xedam Praxis
Repo.
#60 - 2012-04-11 00:31:49 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
Xedam Praxis wrote:


Says he who posts on his alt. Crawl back under your rock troll...

On the other hand, I'm learning so much about PvP from you...this really is a pickle.


This here is an example of someone who is mad that his 10 million fit on a 300 thousand isk hull was questioned, so he resorts to ad-hominem attacks.


Keep the fight alive, man. You're winning.

“The word of a gentleman is as good as his bond; and sometimes better.”

  • Charles Dickens