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Rifters vs Other Frigates - Other Frigates Useless?

Author
Senshi Hawk
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2012-04-09 04:17:48 UTC
Axel Greye wrote:
4. Cookie Cutter Tristan - Pros: Versatile, Good DPS, Nice Tank Arrow Cons: Slow, Skill Intense, Can be Kited


Neut tristan is more effective than any tristan that offers "good DPS"
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-04-09 04:43:47 UTC
The Rifter just so happens to be a cheap bird with enough mid and low slots to fit a tank and tackle + some stabs. The fact that it can be successfully fit with a shield OR armor tank adds a level of versatility without losing effectiveness that is nearly unmatched by any T1 frigate. That alone makes it extra attractive as a cross-over frigate for non-minmatar pilots - as a Caldari pilot, the ability to fit a shield tank made this a perfect ship to train into for PvP purposes. That's not even mentioning the speed and bonuses - which are second to none.

BUT - that doesn't mean that it's the only decent frigate for PvP. Not by a long shot. The kestrel, merlin, punisher and executioner are all excellent choices for T1 PvP frigates. I have never been fond of Gallente ships - thus, I don't know much about them - but I presume that there's at least one decent PvP frigate choice there.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-04-09 08:21:24 UTC
Here's the T1 frig with the best overall dps and ehp.

[Merlin, Solo MSE]

Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket

1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I


114dps (Slightly higher than cookie Rifter)
10.4k ehp (More than double cookie Rifter!!)

Untested. I need to get myself some ISK and rejoin RVB.

The weakness of this fit is that it is slow and has no web. Could it even solo most other frigates, because of this?
Florio
Miniature Giant Space Hamsters
#24 - 2012-04-09 11:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Florio
It's difficult to say one frigate is better than another, because it depends on the circumstances. For instance, the best frigate for 1v1 frigate fights might be an MWD frigate with Warp Disruptor and Standard Missiles (eg. Kestrel or Breacher), whereas the best frigate for "real" PvP is probably going to be the Rifter even though in 1v1s they can be beaten, especially if they've fitted an MWD. In 1v1 you also have a scissors/paper/stone thing going on so there's no overall 100% winner as there is always a ship & fitting providing a counter to your ship & fitting.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-04-09 14:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Megos Adriano wrote:
Anyone have any ideas on what the fittings would be for them?

Goal: Take down a Vagabond or a Hurricane without letting them warp away


Vagabond or Hurricane will instantly pop you with 180/200's and probably at worst 2 shot you with 425mm unless you're a hell of a big number

An 180's set up will just pop any of your frigs from 0 to 30km with a decent fit, Auto canons are completely cheat at tracking small targets even the fastest ones.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#26 - 2012-04-09 14:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
All other races have great t1 frigates. The Rifter is popular because it can be fit in a wide variety of ways and is generally extremely simple to fly and use. In addition to being acceptable at straight up frigate fights, it is great for suicide tackle.
Florio
Miniature Giant Space Hamsters
#27 - 2012-04-09 15:03:33 UTC
Megos Adriano wrote:
Anyone have any ideas on what the fittings would be for them?

Goal: Take down a Vagabond or a Hurricane without letting them warp away


You'll obviously want a number of frigates. Vagabonds and Hurricanes often fit Medium Neutralisers, so they will be able to empty your capacitor. You will be at close range so have to go up against Minmatar close range ammo, probably faction EMP.

So, assuming EMP damage (heavy EM damage) you will want to avoid frigates with weak EM resists; therefore go for armour tanking frigates.

You will also have your tacklers being neutralised, so you want more than one of your frigates with a warp scrambler. Neuting also dictates that you don't use active tanking or weapons that use capacitor.

You'll want warp scrambler rather than warp disruptor for most of your frigates as your chosen targets usually have MWDs and you want to turn those MWDs off.

A Vaga's weakest resist is Kinetic, which doesn't often get patched up with a resist mod, so shoot them with kinetic missiles or kinetic-heavy ammo.

Good luck.
Axel Greye
Unlikely Suspects
#28 - 2012-04-10 02:59:47 UTC
Senshi Hawk wrote:
Axel Greye wrote:
4. Cookie Cutter Tristan - Pros: Versatile, Good DPS, Nice Tank Arrow Cons: Slow, Skill Intense, Can be Kited


Neut tristan is more effective than any tristan that offers "good DPS"

Cons: Slow

Neut tristan does not have the pace to apply its neuting power against other faster frigates, or against things like kestrels/merlins its neuting power is completely wasted as its essentially a cap-free setup (besides blasters on merlins).
As soon as I see neuts on a tristan my orbit is reset to 7km and it's plain sailing. Atleast with blasters+null you put out more dps, though more often than not its still not enough against a good Rifter.
Axel Greye
Unlikely Suspects
#29 - 2012-04-10 03:04:52 UTC
Florio wrote:
It's difficult to say one frigate is better than another, because it depends on the circumstances. For instance, the best frigate for 1v1 frigate fights might be an MWD frigate with Warp Disruptor and Standard Missiles (eg. Kestrel or Breacher), whereas the best frigate for "real" PvP is probably going to be the Rifter even though in 1v1s they can be beaten, especially if they've fitted an MWD. In 1v1 you also have a scissors/paper/stone thing going on so there's no overall 100% winner as there is always a ship & fitting providing a counter to your ship & fitting.


Essentially yes. A big part of becoming a good 1v1 pilot is learning to predict the meta, and being ready for surprises. Things like full-tackle armor kestrels, or slave-tanked railgun incursus and even shield rifters to an extent.

Variants that are not viable conventionally, can be made effective to counter common fits.

Shield Rifter > Shield Kestrel

ST Railgun Incursus > Cookie Cutter Rifter

etc.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#30 - 2012-04-10 03:19:50 UTC
The problem you will face when trying for a vaga is it will go nearly as fast as you (2km/s vs 3km/s for MWD frig), with decent tracking. You need to have a scram, and get into range, and then deal with its drones - which is often easier said than done.

However, if you expressly go hunting for vagas and canes, you can try various things:

Griffin w/ full minnie jams + Rifter + Crucifier with TD's vs solo cane will do well

Punisher (scram) + Kestrel + Incursus (dissy) vs cane

Etcetera.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#31 - 2012-04-10 04:26:02 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Here's the T1 frig with the best overall dps and ehp.

[Merlin, Solo MSE]

Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket

1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I


114dps (Slightly higher than cookie Rifter)
10.4k ehp (More than double cookie Rifter!!)

Untested. I need to get myself some ISK and rejoin RVB.

The weakness of this fit is that it is slow and has no web. Could it even solo most other frigates, because of this?


I have flown that fit on my frigate alt with maxed skills. It cannot dictate range effectively. It is possible that the person I was fighting had gang booster bonuses, but he was able to kite me. He did the same to my Kestrel. When I fought him with my Rifter, he won with about 10% hull left (I think the gang booster probably made the difference for him here).

In my experience (not on this character), the key to success with a T1 AB frigate is what range the fight starts at. If you start inside web/scram range, just overheat your mods and pray. One of you is dying in under a minute. Outside that range, you're toast - unless you can hit effectively all the way out to 24km - in which case you can either fight at that range or warp out at will.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Dead Loss
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-04-10 06:54:05 UTC
instead of going for rofters, i would pay slightly more and go for destroyers, Thrashers.

They can deal with frig class ships, including interceptors etc.

And honestly, a fitted Thrasher, with t1/meta 2-3 modules can come to 2.5-3 mil if you do good.

A fleet of 20 of these could easily overwhelm opponents.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-04-10 08:27:37 UTC
Isn't the Rifter for frigate's what the Drake is for Battle cruisers. Not exactly the best, but fairly easy to fit and fly effective.

Lets say the sherman tanks of EVE, yeah there are better ships but every farmer that can drive a tractor can fly a Rifter or a Drake.

Xedam Praxis
Repo.
#34 - 2012-04-10 13:23:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Xedam Praxis
FT Diomedes wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
Here's the T1 frig with the best overall dps and ehp.

[Merlin, Solo MSE]

Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Rocket

1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I


114dps (Slightly higher than cookie Rifter)
10.4k ehp (More than double cookie Rifter!!)

Untested. I need to get myself some ISK and rejoin RVB.

The weakness of this fit is that it is slow and has no web. Could it even solo most other frigates, because of this?


I have flown that fit on my frigate alt with maxed skills. It cannot dictate range effectively. It is possible that the person I was fighting had gang booster bonuses, but he was able to kite me. He did the same to my Kestrel. When I fought him with my Rifter, he won with about 10% hull left (I think the gang booster probably made the difference for him here).

In my experience (not on this character), the key to success with a T1 AB frigate is what range the fight starts at. If you start inside web/scram range, just overheat your mods and pray. One of you is dying in under a minute. Outside that range, you're toast - unless you can hit effectively all the way out to 24km - in which case you can either fight at that range or warp out at will.


A standard MSE Rifter fit using Barrage would likely win against this Merlin. Further, considering this Merlin's inability to dictate range and that the MSE Rifter is nearly twice as fast, even if the fight started to go poorly the Rifter would simply burn out of scram range and warp off.

For solo PvP the Rifter is considered the “best” T1 hull because of it’s versatility. However, every race has a viable T1 hull for PvP and often times the advantage in using a hull other than the Rifter is that you’ll be underestimated.

This Merlin would be more likely to succeed going toe-to-toe with a Rifter:

[Merlin, New Setup 1]

Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S
Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket

Experimental 1MN Afterburner I
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Versus a standard MSE Rifter using Barrage this fit should theoretically pop the Rifter in 33.3s, weapons overheated whereas the Rifter would take 41.4s to pop the Merlin. However, the Rifter is still faster and could potentially pull range and escape if the pilot realized he was losing in time.

“The word of a gentleman is as good as his bond; and sometimes better.”

  • Charles Dickens
Sonny Dang
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-04-10 13:43:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonny Dang
That's the problem in EVE. Many are affected by the opinions of the few people that they interact with. I'm sure many have been told that Rifters and Thrashers are 'amazing', that's how they begin to chase for those ships hull to begin with and that's why EVE is flooded with rifters and thrashers and drakes and canes and all those overated ships. I don't know why it has come to that, but I assume it is because of the effect mentioned above.

When I first started incursion, I was told by other to cross train to Minmatar for the hurricane just because the myrm and the brutix weren't suitable for the job. I almost did but I'm glad I didn't because I could have ended up in this whole mass effect. I'm gallente, and I enjoy my ships no matter how flawed they are compared with other races. I still try to make the best out of it.

So my advise to you is to fly whatever frigate type that best suites you and your skills. Don't listen to what others have to say. Only when you've tried that you can have an opinion of your own.
Devil tiger
#36 - 2012-04-10 15:52:25 UTC
If you think Rifter is good anl like flying it. Then you'll positively love the Jaguar.

It's got all the Rifter good sides and more slots. It's also only a few hundred m/s slower than its T1 cousin.

And it used to be damn cheap too like all the AF's -only 10mil/hull or so.


McRoll
Extraction and Exploration Ltd.
#37 - 2012-04-10 16:15:06 UTC
Megos Adriano wrote:
Hey guys,

So I've been reading lately about how a certain now prominent alliance rose to power through the might of the Rifter. Chiefly, their pilots were all low SP with very little game experience, but they were able to overwhelming capital fleets with sheer numbers of cheaply fitted Rifters. Volumes have been written on the beauty, power, and utility of the Rifter. I've witnessed (via Youtube) 20 or so Rifters mobbing a carrier and within minutes podding it's pilot.

But the other racial frigates... nary a word is spoken about them. Do they genuinely suck, or have they fallen victim to "numbers optimization"?

If "mixed fleets" are a viable option, then what sort of frigate force would it take to overwhelm and destroy a lone pilot flying in, say, a Hurricane or a Vagabond at a gate camp?


Coming from RvB and having tried most frigates I can only say that Merlin has replaced the Rifter for me. Rifter is so widespread because of its good name, ease to fit etc, like people already stated. However, it is not as strong as you might think. Since the hybrid weapon boost the already good alternatives became even better now.

[Merlin, New Setup 1]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II

Light Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rocket

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I

I have been using this fit for great success. It mops up the floor with your usual Rifter and can be modified as you like it to be, exchange the MWD for AB for example or the web for an invufield for even more tank. With an anc router you can even exchange the auxiliary power core for a damage control. Has well over 100 DPS in all configurations and way more EHP than a Rifter. With Null ammo even quite enough range for a frig fight.

If you can't fit the above, just downgrade guns, this works only with perfect fitting skills and some implants.

Haven't tested the Gallente ones yet thoroughly but they seem to be good as well.

Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2012-04-10 16:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Aranakas
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:

BUT - that doesn't mean that it's the only decent frigate for PvP. Not by a long shot. The kestrel, merlin, punisher and executioner are all excellent choices for T1 PvP frigates. I have never been fond of Gallente ships - thus, I don't know much about them - but I presume that there's at least one decent PvP frigate choice there.


Kestrel, Merlin, EXECUTIONER?!?! GOOD?!?

The Kestrel is a little underpowered, but it's as good as missile boats get, I guess. The Merlin takes too many skills to fly well, which defeats the whole point of being a tech 1 frigate; and the Executioner is a fast frigate. Basically an upgraded shuttle.

Fly a Vigil if you need a cheap tackler.

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green

Xedam Praxis
Repo.
#39 - 2012-04-10 16:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Xedam Praxis
McRoll wrote:

[Merlin, New Setup 1]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II

Light Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rocket

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I

I have been using this fit for great success. It mops up the floor with your usual Rifter and can be modified as you like it to be, exchange the MWD for AB for example or the web for an invufield for even more tank. With an anc router you can even exchange the auxiliary power core for a damage control. Has well over 100 DPS in all configurations and way more EHP than a Rifter. With Null ammo even quite enough range for a frig fight.

If you can't fit the above, just downgrade guns, this works only with perfect fitting skills and some implants.

Haven't tested the Gallente ones yet thoroughly but they seem to be good as well.


I wouldn't use a MWD on a Merlin that intended to brawl with a Rifter, as the Rifter's scram will disable said MWD and leave you floating along at an abysmal 335 ms (and that's before the Rifter cuts that 335 ms in half with his web). Your fit gets the same damage output as the one I mentioned above, except mine doesn't require implants to fit and it also has better tank. If you want to use a MWD on a Merlin, I'd suggest a kiting fit like this:

[Merlin, New setup 2]

125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S
125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S
Standard Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Light Missile
Standard Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Light Missile

Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption
Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 150

Tracking Enhancer II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
[Empty Rig slot]

Sit at 20KM and plink your target to death. Of course, this is all based on solo PvP. If you're talking fleet frigate PVP versus a single, large target (as the OP mentioned) than the fittings could vary wildly based on roles. A Mixed fleet of T1 frigate hulls could theoretically take down a wide range of ships with the right numbers and under the right circumstance.

“The word of a gentleman is as good as his bond; and sometimes better.”

  • Charles Dickens
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-04-10 16:57:48 UTC
Meta 4 Medium Shield Extenders on a tech 1 frigate.

Seriously? You're going to spend 5 million isk on a module for a 300k isk hull?

Balmer Series Tracking Disruptors? Aren't those like 5 million isk too?

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green