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T2BPO why they should be removed and how.

First post
Author
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#41 - 2012-04-09 20:02:23 UTC
I'm glad this thread got unlocked as I hope it will become the focal point for peoples abhorrence to T2BPO and that it makes noobs aware of their existance. I hope that people can refrain from making personal attacks just because they disagree with the removal of T2BPO.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#42 - 2012-04-09 20:15:55 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
I'm glad this thread got unlocked as I hope it will become the focal point for peoples abhorrence to T2BPO and that it makes noobs aware of their existance. I hope that people can refrain from making personal attacks just because they disagree with the removal of T2BPO.


But it won't:

T2 BPOs are completely irrelevant to the vast majority of those of us who invent, make piles of money at it, and view T2 BPOs as an intellectual curiosity, if we think about them at all.

"Noob" is a pejorative, by the way--it helps to not insult your intended audience if you're trying to sway them to your foolish crusade.

Your reasoning is fallacious.

Your arguments are spurious and fuelled by selfish, whinging jealousy.

No-one cares.

Next!

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

Haulie Berry
#43 - 2012-04-09 21:05:33 UTC
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:


Your arguments are spurious and fuelled by selfish, whinging jealousy.

No-one cares.

Next!


Bears repeating.
Bluestream3
the Goose Flock
#44 - 2012-04-09 21:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Bluestream3
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:

But it won't:

T2 BPOs are completely irrelevant to the vast majority of those of us who invent, make piles of money at it, and view T2 BPOs as an intellectual curiosity, if we think about them at all.

"Noob" is a pejorative, by the way--it helps to not insult your intended audience if you're trying to sway them to your foolish crusade.

Your reasoning is fallacious.

Your arguments are spurious and fuelled by selfish, whinging jealousy.

No-one cares.

Next!


Ok. Saying that T2 BPOs are completely irrelevant to inventors is just as much of a logic fail as to say that the minerals I mine are free. Also don't say that no one cares, you seem to care at least a bit since you're writing in this thread and there are several others that do too, me included obviously.

Then again I think it would be good to just wait and see what happens. If I understand it correctly the upcoming expansions will be iterating on a couple of different areas, please correct me if I'm wrong but I think industry or manufacturing was one of the areas. And while I don't expect them to just remove T2 BPOs, but I'm sure they'll at least mention them or share their thoughts in some way, because let's face it, wether you want them gone or not, it's a pretty widely discussed topic when it comes to manufacturing and ignoring it would be very dissappointing (even if the owners would obviously prefer it that way ;)).
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#45 - 2012-04-09 21:32:04 UTC
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
I'm glad this thread got unlocked as I hope it will become the focal point for peoples abhorrence to T2BPO and that it makes noobs aware of their existance. I hope that people can refrain from making personal attacks just because they disagree with the removal of T2BPO.


But it won't:

T2 BPOs are completely irrelevant to the vast majority of those of us who invent, make piles of money at it, and view T2 BPOs as an intellectual curiosity, if we think about them at all.

"Noob" is a pejorative, by the way--it helps to not insult your intended audience if you're trying to sway them to your foolish crusade.

Your reasoning is fallacious.

Your arguments are spurious and fuelled by selfish, whinging jealousy.

No-one cares.

Next!


T2BPO are not irreleveant did you even read the data released by CCP?
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-04-09 21:55:06 UTC
Bluestream3 wrote:

Ok. Saying that T2 BPOs are completely irrelevant to inventors is just as much of a logic fail as to say that the minerals I mine are free. Also don't say that no one cares, you seem to care at least a bit since you're writing in this thread and there are several others that do too, me included obviously.


"Completely irrelevant" is an exageration. "Largely irrelevant" would be apt.


Can you name one specific item where inventor margins would be significantly improved if T2 BPOs were removed? (Hint: this is a trap question. Even if you find one, which is doubtful, I have plenty of counter-examples to pick from)


If not, that is empirical evidence that the existence of those BPOs aren't significantly affecting inventors, and so, yes, they are "largely irrelevant". Very far from what this Don Quichotte of an OP is claiming.
Zifrian
FAYN Industries
Dark Side of the Eclipse
#47 - 2012-04-09 22:22:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
The main issue with your whole set of threads is that you have already determined that T2 BPOs are unfair and should be removed. That seems to be the reoccurring theme in these types of threads. Most of us don't think they are a problem or need to be removed. But you didn't ask that, you just jumped in feet first with 'they are unfair' and thus you get the back and forth.

All the data produced and analysis shows that T2 BPOs fill low demand items that have low volume or the items are so high demand that inventors can make isk comparable to those with T2 BPOs due to production times and number of blueprints.

So basically, if you want to continue this, I suggest you get some facts and numbers to argue first *if* they are harming the economy enough that they should be removed, then talk about how. But trying to find a problem to your solution isn't going to get you anywhere.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Bluestream3
the Goose Flock
#48 - 2012-04-09 22:24:33 UTC
Shadowsword wrote:
Bluestream3 wrote:

Ok. Saying that T2 BPOs are completely irrelevant to inventors is just as much of a logic fail as to say that the minerals I mine are free. Also don't say that no one cares, you seem to care at least a bit since you're writing in this thread and there are several others that do too, me included obviously.


"Completely irrelevant" is an exageration. "Largely irrelevant" would be apt.


Can you name one specific item where inventor margins would be significantly improved if T2 BPOs were removed? (Hint: this is a trap question. Even if you find one, which is doubtful, I have plenty of counter-examples to pick from)


If not, that is empirical evidence that the existence of those BPOs aren't significantly affecting inventors, and so, yes, they are "largely irrelevant". Very far from what this Don Quichotte of an OP is claiming.


All of them. The kind of argument you're trying to get started here is a never-ending discussion that I don't want to get involved in at the moment, now flame away for that. However it is obvious that it's cheaper to build items from T2 BPOs than it is from invention. As long as some percent of items is produced cheaper from originals than the rest of the supply, they will have an impact on the market, small or large.

Without the numbers released from CCP we can't say anything and in my opinion, anyone who claims to know what would happen is simply lying because there's just no way to know. Personally, I think the numbers released by CCP speaks for themselves.
Salo Aldeland
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2012-04-09 22:36:38 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:


T2BPO are not irreleveant did you even read the data released by CCP?


What I saw was that a tiny number of BPO's is enough to supply a market with tiny demand. If my goal was to strike it rich building a bunch of expensive ships that nobody wants to buy then sure, competing against BPO's would be a huge problem. Thankfully, I'm nowhere near that stupid.

As a new and thriving industrialist, they are completely irrelevant to the success or failure of my ventures. Compared to their cost of acquisition, they make next to nothing in profit. They're completely irrelevant to the balance of the market. Nobody's getting rich off of them. The only thing T2 BPO's pertain to is a sense of injury that a long, long time ago some people allegedly got a bunch of BPO's through some vaguely crooked channels, and the rest of didn't and never will again.

Boo friggin' hoo. Did you read what this game says on the box? It's been designed as unfair FROM THE GROUND UP. That's what it's advertised as. That's why people pay for it, to play a game of Space Jerks where anything goes. I would be frankly upset if a huge faction with trillions upon trillions in assets COULDN'T abuse the system. What the hell is all that money for, it not for dominating the galaxy?

Do you honestly think it's some sort of a secret that Eve is a cruel, unfair game? You really think that if CCP was worried about one player gaining an advantage over another through less-than-honorable means they'd start with removing T2 BPO's?


I usually find there's a Zappa lyric that pertains to just about everything. Here's yours:
Frank Zappa wrote:

Maybe you should stay with yo' mamma.
She could do your laundry 'n cook for you.

You ain't really made for bein' out in the street
Ain't much hope for a fool like you
'Cause if you play the game, you will get beat
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#50 - 2012-04-09 22:50:35 UTC
Salo Aldeland wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:


T2BPO are not irreleveant did you even read the data released by CCP?


What I saw was that a tiny number of BPO's is enough to supply a market with tiny demand. If my goal was to strike it rich building a bunch of expensive ships that nobody wants to buy then sure, competing against BPO's would be a huge problem. Thankfully, I'm nowhere near that stupid.

As a new and thriving industrialist, they are completely irrelevant to the success or failure of my ventures. Compared to their cost of acquisition, they make next to nothing in profit. They're completely irrelevant to the balance of the market. Nobody's getting rich off of them. The only thing T2 BPO's pertain to is a sense of injury that a long, long time ago some people allegedly got a bunch of BPO's through some vaguely crooked channels, and the rest of didn't and never will again.

Boo friggin' hoo. Did you read what this game says on the box? It's been designed as unfair FROM THE GROUND UP. That's what it's advertised as. That's why people pay for it, to play a game of Space Jerks where anything goes. I would be frankly upset if a huge faction with trillions upon trillions in assets COULDN'T abuse the system. What the hell is all that money for, it not for dominating the galaxy?

Do you honestly think it's some sort of a secret that Eve is a cruel, unfair game? You really think that if CCP was worried about one player gaining an advantage over another through less-than-honorable means they'd start with removing T2 BPO's?


I usually find there's a Zappa lyric that pertains to just about everything. Here's yours:
Frank Zappa wrote:

Maybe you should stay with yo' mamma.
She could do your laundry 'n cook for you.

You ain't really made for bein' out in the street
Ain't much hope for a fool like you
'Cause if you play the game, you will get beat


Funny that pay to win was so opposed then. It's basically the same as what you jsut described. Something that allows one player a distinct advantage over others.
Salo Aldeland
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2012-04-09 23:42:15 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:

Funny that pay to win was so opposed then. It's basically the same as what you jsut described. Something that allows one player a distinct advantage over others.


Oh, you mean PLEX?
Aggressive Nutmeg
#52 - 2012-04-10 00:38:10 UTC
I don't own any T2BPO's but I like that we have the option of pursuing these items to form a rare collection.

T2BPO collection is another fun option within Eve - at least for some people, I suspect.

Remove T2BPO's and you make this universe just a little bit less interesting.

Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana.

Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-04-10 05:56:42 UTC
Hint for the economic noobs: Selling price is related to building cost ONLY on very low-demand items, when margins are so razor-thin that most productors give up on supplying the market. For any item with a reasonnable transaction volume, the ONLY thing that determine the selling price is how much buyers are ready to fork out for it.
Voogru
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
#54 - 2012-04-10 07:03:23 UTC
Quote:
1. They were dropped by Rats in certain systems. Many deemed this unfair and pointed to the fact that CCP were intentionally aiming drops at particularly alliances/corps by generating the drop in their space


lol.
Voogru
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
#55 - 2012-04-10 07:06:06 UTC
Lauren Hellfury wrote:
Still selling [T2H8R] shares. 1M each and all proceeds go towards the purchase and trashing of T2 BPOs.

If you really want to see T2 BPOs starting to be removed from the game then this is how you do it. We're about halfway to the first one visiting the recycler.

Link in sig. Do it!


You know what would be really smart? Rather than destroying the bpos right away, build from them and use the profits to buy more T2 BPO's!

Then once you have trillions of ISK worth of all of the BPO's, then trash them all!
Kurfin
Kippers and Jam Developments
#56 - 2012-04-10 08:41:42 UTC
Does anyone know how many T2BPOs are in use? They were seeded a quite a while ago, so I'd imagine there are plenty on inactive accounts and in dead corp hangers and some for unwanted modules/ships simply won't get used a significant amount. What really affects invention profits is the same thing that affects all manufacturing, people not doing their sums and routinely selling below cost price.

Of course, if to even the playing field between T2BPO holders and inventors CCP tweaked the invented BPCs ME to positive figures I wouldn't complain.
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-04-10 11:31:22 UTC
When they were seeded, it was 8 BPOs for each T2 ship and 16 BPOs for each T2 module.

Quite a few have been lost since then, bewteen destructions and canceled accounts.
Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries
#58 - 2012-04-10 12:44:27 UTC
Gatan Hahran wrote:
my neighbour got an iphone4. i cant afford one so they need to take it away from him.


Your neighbor is a tool

95% of the players are loving EVE, the other 5%? On the forums.

Nydia Carver
Bacon Corp
#59 - 2012-04-10 16:15:50 UTC
Well they fixed drone regions, next it´s T2 BPO´s. Cool
lol fourm troll
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-04-10 16:28:57 UTC
Nydia Carver wrote:
Well they fixed drone regions, next it´s T2 BPO´s. Cool

Whats broken about T2BPOs, that you dont have any?