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It doesn't need to be complex. The reason it is complex is because CCP makes lots of rules around it trying to control the results way too much for a Sandbox game.

If simplicity was the goal I would just roll back the Wardec system to what it was pre P. alliance nerf and do away with NPC corps for non newbies. That would solve the majority of the real issues.

"War is merely the continuation of policy by other means." Carl Von Causewitz.

What that policy happens to be isn't a defining point of war, only that the use or threat of force is used to achieve it.

All the proposals that suggest tournaments, arenas, dueling systems, or try to narrowly define what they believe is justified policy to be pursued by war are not valid suggestions for this thread, they are not "War Declaration" proposals.

No, my underlying point is and always has been on these issues that I want a game driven by players and lore. I want EVE to be a Sandbox game built around a simulation of futuristic world of strife and opportunity where spaceships travel the virtual stars. Basically what I was sold on by CCP.

Players like you don't understand the game you're playing, you come up with suggestions that would suck the life out of these games and make them boring stale affairs like all the rest of WoW/EQ type MMORPGs. Your a disease within the playerbase that if can't be cured is better removed. I would welcome your departure from EVE.

You have no basis to claim 100k subs would vanish if CCP let War really take place in High Sec. If as many as 100 thousand gamers came to a Sandbox MMO built around player conflict expecting a Themepark MMO experience built around safe PvE then there's far more stupid people in this world than I thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MZD6-vGQms&feature=relmfu


CCP's own economic video should be a good signal over where most of the people prefer to hang out in EVE... and yet it is PVP only content being added ... get the scan CCP not everyone wants to PVP.... and as you said us in high sec are the Logistics in EVE that keep the eve market and everything else going... and yet you think we need to make things more 'hardcore' and force us PVE only players into PVP where we have chosen NOT to do... we already sacrifice the many huge isk fountains that low sec and null sec offers but you want to penalize us more anyway thinking it will get us into PVP (it will not)... if me and my buddies choose to mission and mine or whatever in high sec only taking away our ability to make a POS or other Big corp asset because we choose not to have large numbers of people in there with us is a slap in our faces... you have any idea how long it takes to get enough standing to anchor a POS in regard to time commitment and effort to keep the logistics going to fuel and supply it? in high sec it is a full on effort in itself...with us having to worry about events as hulkagedon and such that affect our mineral gathering ops.


I like playing the markets and building stuff or researching / inventing and I sell the fruits of my effort to others... why are you so convinced I have any interest in PVP. Call me a carebear but it is my choice to not do PVP and forcing me into it is not going to do anything but turn me off as my friends and I have been wardec'd constantly and we simply close up shop and dump the war because 'we will NOT fight' ... most of us are honestly on the fence about just quitting all together or going inactive until you realize how much your new system is going to irk the 72% of your players who live in high sec space!

Not all of us are bots, RMT, but hardworking committed players to keeping the EVE engines going... your lack of understanding to this point is terrible and you best consider how much of that 72% is just going to unsub... and that is taking our alt accounts with us all because you want 'Hardcore' PVP from people who have expressed in the last 30 pages so far that it is No...No....No....

I share your general sentiment. However the sentiment is far too general to be of any practical use or give any remote clues in actual game design. You also don't appear to have read what I wrote or didn't understand it. My statement wasn't about taking war to hisec, it was about allowing to pursuing griefing individuals in NPC corps. And yes, I believe that will be the end of EVE, even though I personally am not sure if it would make the game more fun or not. I don't know, too many implications. Most likely people who don't want to engage would quit or make new accounts. Again.. hisec is a space for people who do not want to engage in fights, by definition of hisec. Remove hisec? OK, sure, that would be interesting. I wouldn't mind trying that but CCP will never do it. They just can't afford to experiment with potentially alienating massive numbers of players.

Do you at least agree that allowing unavoidable wars against individuals in hisec (or anywhere) would be a bad design move for CCP?

Forgot the actual idea... ;)

My idea on how to improve the war-dec system was as follows:

• War-decs cost an additional X million (5? 10?) per player in the agressed corp/alliance which will be the war pool hold by Concord. This is the additional cost per player (ACPP)
• For every kill the value of the spaceship list is deducted from that war pool (max 2 times the ACPP) and payed back to the aggressor.

This serves two purposes: for once aggressors cannot just log off and do Jita camping with their alts as they are forced to actually hunt down the enemy as otherwise they have to pay a hefty fee at the end. The other purpose is that the aggressor can no longer war-dec completely defenseless corps, as they will just hide and force the aggressor to pay the hefty fee at the end. And as a side-effect you cannot war-dec random corps/alliances as you have to have the money to pay for it initially.

Essentially this would force the mercenaries to war-dec only those who (kind of) mutually agree on the war and be active in that war and most likely already solve 99% of the high-sec war-dec issues we have with the current system. I understand that some players love to kill and shoot down everyone in Eve, however to those players please understand that there are other who love to just log on after a hard work day, do some missions and then go to bed without having to struggle with any war affairs or similar (those loot-stealers are already annoying enough). That is one of the reasons we have high-sec: for people who just don't want to PvP.

The limitation of the Aggressor not able to invite others to the war is pointless. He can just ask or hire independent corps to wardec with him.

Agreed, however an 'in game' contract system for both would be great. Perhaps eventually the market can be expanded.

I for one do not understand the desire for all the controls on war. Are that many smaller corps being wardecced to smithereens by mega alliances?

When we were in empire we got decced by corps only slightly larger than ours, and we sought out help when it happened. The new contract system is great - it is going to create a whole new area of content for those who are 'white hat' and want to help the little guy out. I think there are more of those people than you realize.

The problem is, the current war dec price structure as outlined will stifle war. It makes hitting the logistics of 0.0 alliances next to impossible. These alliances do not need CCP's protection. They don't even need their own alliance's protection. The people in large 0.0 alliances who lose freighters, etc. to empire war decs are the bottom of the barrel anyway and the war deccers are only helping the alliance in question by revealing the weak and stupid among them.

And those small corp carebears who are concerned - the price structure will mean you get decced more. Empire privateers would much rather hit the shipping lanes of Goonswarm or -A- than prey on the small and weak who have far fewer assets. But left with a 4 billion isk bill to hit Goons, or the ability to prey on a smaller empire corp/alliance for far less - what do you think they will choose?

So WHY ON EARTH, does CCP want to afford these mega alliances so much protection? Why do they want to create an even EASIER and CHEAPER form of dec shielding? Well the angry citizen's of new eden have proposed two options: the diabolic and the ignorant.

Based on the response at the fan fest session, I believe it's the later. But the lack of response - the lack of willingness to say, "we hadn't considered that, clearly we need to address it" is disheartening and leads people to think the reasons are diabolical, however irrational that may be.

I don't want to fill my posts with too much anti-ccp rhetoric, because I had a blast at fanfest, met a few devs, had a great time, etc. and I also think that overall they do an awesome job. But I will say this: it is CCP's silence that allows for the formation of rumors, paranoia and anger that festers and grows. We saw it monocle gate. In this case it may be to a lesser extent than in monocle gate, but fundamentally it is the same.

CCP needs to do a better job of picking up on trends and themes in threads, especially those that begin to sound a little like an angry mob, and then react with some official statements.

CCP you've said you want to eliminate loopholes but have just proposed a loophole that outclasses all other dec shielding loopholes to date. How about an answer already?

Argus

That would cost more ISK and you have a heads-up on how many you are fighting, so not pointless. The main reason is if its about hisec pos defense, it would make sense to know how many you are fighting, so you can decide how much help you need if any. Otherwise you have no clue who wardecced you and how many you'll end up fighting, which is basically lawless space. There are no advantages to hisec poses then at all (well other than location).

Another potential issue i see - will the defending merc be linked to a war or to the defending entity? It should be linked to the defending corp rather than a war, otherwise it's easily gamed (attackers split and the merc can only defend against one of the attackers)