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Transversal velocity and tracking
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Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2011-09-27 17:06:26 UTC
Imagine there are two frigates. We'll call them frigate A and frigate B. Frigate A is stationary. Frigate B is orbiting frigate A at 1000 m and traveling at 500 m/s. Frigate B's overview shows a transversal velocity of 400 m/s. Will frigate A's overview also show a transversal velocity of 400 m/s or something different?

My second question is about transversal velocity and how it affects tracking. Can you look at your transversal velocity (or maybe radial velocity) and tell how well your shot will land before ever firing your guns? Is there a general rule of thumb for this like "keep transversal velocity below your guns tracking speed"?

One last question. I have an equal amount of skills in both autocannons and lasers. Unless I'm mistaken my autocannons seem to hit as hard or harder in falloff range than my lasers do in optimal. Is this because my lasers damage is reduced by slower tracking speed?

Oh sorry, one more. If I set my orbit around another ship to 500 m why does my actual orbit wind up being over twice that? Is this due to my ships agility? With max skills is it possible to get a small ship to orbit that tight?

Thanks.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#2 - 2011-09-27 17:33:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Koujjo Dian wrote:
Imagine there are two frigates. We'll call them frigate A and frigate B. Frigate A is stationary. Frigate B is orbiting frigate A at 1000 m and traveling at 500 m/s. Frigate B's overview shows a transversal velocity of 400 m/s. Will frigate A's overview also show a transversal velocity of 400 m/s or something different?


Yes, they will see each others transversal equal to each other.


Koujjo Dian wrote:
My second question is about transversal velocity and how it affects tracking. Can you look at your transversal velocity (or maybe radial velocity) and tell how well your shot will land before ever firing your guns? Is there a general rule of thumb for this like "keep transversal velocity below your guns tracking speed"?


Yes, and no. You can tell how well your shots will hit.


Transversal isn't a direct correlation to how well your shots will hit. You want to look at Angular Velocity, which is represented in Rad/Sec.

If you look on your turret you'll see a field called "Tracking Speed" and it will be represented in Rad/Sec.


Rad/Sec isn't a direct correlation to hit or miss, the actual calculation isn't disclosed and the closest players have gotten to it is a bit esoteric - but suffice it to say, that Tracking Speed roughly represents the maximum angular velocity you want to stay under for solid hits.


Koujjo Dian wrote:
One last question. I have an equal amount of skills in both autocannons and lasers. Unless I'm mistaken my autocannons seem to hit as hard or harder in falloff range than my lasers do in optimal. Is this because my lasers damage is reduced by slower tracking speed?


Yes, basically. Lasers have a harder time keeping up with faster targets - they will still hit (refer to previous question) but not as well. Better tracking also means you're more likely to get "critical" hits such as wrecking shots, etc.

Koujjo Dian wrote:
Oh sorry, one more. If I set my orbit around another ship to 500 m why does my actual orbit wind up being over twice that? Is this due to my ships agility? With max skills is it possible to get a small ship to orbit that tight?



It's because of your momentum really - but your agility implies how quickly you can overcome inertia. I don't think I've ever seen a full MWD ship actually orbit at full speed at 500m, but you can get closer with better agility, yes.


Koujjo Dian wrote:

Thanks.



You're welcome.


This is an old (But good) flash tool to help you understand tracking and range.


http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0910/eve-tracking101.swf

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Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2011-09-27 17:48:47 UTC
That pretty well answered everything. I will look at that flash thingy as soon as I get the chance. Thanks!
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#4 - 2011-09-27 18:08:55 UTC

To give you a quick anecdote...


One time with a Firetail with an optimal of about 4KM and a Falloff of about 8Km, I hit a friend of mine that I was 1v1 duelling in frigates with at about 30KM. Critical hit - blew him up straight from structure into 0%. He was WELL out of my optima, well out of my Falloff*2, and on top of it all I did a wrecking blow.


Probably the luckiest shot I will ever take in EVE, and I blew it blowing up a friend of mine... Roll


I'm guessing the chances of making a shot like that are about 1 in 100,000.


So, it's not so cut and dry - there is a chance of "Randomness" in there, but it's not reliable enough to rely on in real fights.

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Othran
Route One
#5 - 2011-09-29 12:32:27 UTC
On overview I have :

Velocity;
Radial velocity - ie is the target approaching or receding;
Angular velocity - ie will the guns track;

That's all you need for positional info on a target really. Takes a bit of practice but (for example) you can tell when someone is about to go into an orbit around you because the radial velocity will drop and the angular velocity will rise.

Angular velocity is simply transversal velocity with the distance component included. Transversal velocity is totally useless on the overview.
malaire
#6 - 2011-09-29 12:46:17 UTC
Long article about Turret Damage, in case you like some math Big smile

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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#7 - 2011-09-29 23:54:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Bloodpetal wrote:
Lasers have a harder time keeping up with faster targets - they will still hit (refer to previous question) but not as well. Better tracking also means you're more likely to get "critical" hits such as wrecking shots, etc.

Short optimal + short falloff = Blasters = They are face melting effective, but only within a small and close range, so it is vital to be able to dictate that range in the battle by using superior speed or webs. Do kinetic and thermal damage.

Short optimal + long falloff = AutoCannons = They are used in falloff, and have a very flexible engagement range with good tracking. Don't use any capacitor energy, unlike other non-projectile turrets. They are commonly used on all races of ships that don't have a turret damage bonus. Do all types of damage depending on ammo, but always some explosive or kinetic.

Moderate optimal + short falloff = Lasers = They are used within optimal (only miss because of tracking) right around max optimal, and because of the short falloff they compensate by changing ammo instantly to adjust range. Lasers eat massive amounts of capacitor energy and have a hefty grid fitting requirement, but Amarr ships are built to compensate. Only do EM and thermal damage (100% EM with longest range ammo, and thermal increases as range of ammo gets shorter).

Long optimal + long falloff = Artillery = Pack a hefty single volley punch ("alpha"), but tracking is the main issue at close range. The longest range turret in EVE... and the slowest firing, so a miss or a poor hit greatly affects overall damage done, but devastating in large numbers. Don't use any capacitor energy, unlike other non-projectile turrets. They are commonly used on all races of ships that don't have a turret damage bonus. Do all types of damage depending on ammo, but always some explosive or kinetic.

Long optimal + moderate falloff = Railguns = More rapid firing than artillery (misses or poor hits have less overall damage loss), with comparable range and tracking, but far less single volley punch ("alpha"). Are best at close to optimal range and not deep into falloff. Do kinetic and thermal damage. Not favoured in PvP, because though they have decent range they lack alpha, so the target is likely to be repped and survive.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#8 - 2011-09-30 00:07:40 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Rad/Sec isn't a direct correlation to hit or miss, the actual calculation isn't disclosed and the closest players have gotten to it is a bit esoteric - but suffice it to say, that Tracking Speed roughly represents the maximum angular velocity you want to stay under for solid hits.

It's not really that esoteric at all, and the formula is fairly well known since quite a while ago:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage

But yeah, you do have a point - you do want to keep tracking speed at least as high as your angular - in fact, you probably want your angular to be below half of tracking speed.

Bloodpetal wrote:
One time with a Firetail with an optimal of about 4KM and a Falloff of about 8Km, I hit a friend of mine that I was 1v1 duelling in frigates with at about 30KM. Critical hit - blew him up straight from structure into 0%. He was WELL out of my optima, well out of my Falloff*2, and on top of it all I did a wrecking blow.
Probably the luckiest shot I will ever take in EVE, and I blew it blowing up a friend of mine... Roll
I'm guessing the chances of making a shot like that are about 1 in 100,000.

Well, anything below an average 1% chance to hit, if it connects, it's always a wrecking shot, due to how the damage mechanic works.
As for your ACTUAL chance to hit in that scenario - let's assume you hit when angular was zero (so only optimal/falloff mattering) and, pluggin the 4000m optimal 8000m falloff and 30000m distance into the to-hit formula...
...we get an actual result of about "1 in 1,512".

Not quite as unusual as you would have expected Blink

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Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#9 - 2011-09-30 20:47:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Akita T wrote:

Bloodpetal wrote:
One time with a Firetail with an optimal of about 4KM and a Falloff of about 8Km, I hit a friend of mine that I was 1v1 duelling in frigates with at about 30KM. Critical hit - blew him up straight from structure into 0%. He was WELL out of my optima, well out of my Falloff*2, and on top of it all I did a wrecking blow.
Probably the luckiest shot I will ever take in EVE, and I blew it blowing up a friend of mine... Roll
I'm guessing the chances of making a shot like that are about 1 in 100,000.

Well, anything below an average 1% chance to hit, if it connects, it's always a wrecking shot, due to how the damage mechanic works.
As for your ACTUAL chance to hit in that scenario - let's assume you hit when angular was zero (so only optimal/falloff mattering) and, pluggin the 4000m optimal 8000m falloff and 30000m distance into the to-hit formula...
...we get an actual result of about "1 in 1,512".

Not quite as unusual as you would have expected Blink


Heh, I don't recall if it specifically SAID wrecking, but it really must have been. He didn't have a chance :)


I think I was recalling a forum thread trying to extract some other little known formula - it got messy. Yes, the formula there I have seen before, and it's pretty straightforward algebra.

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