Ships & Modules

ok, let me try to explain this slowly . . . this thread is about how effective groups of titans are against subcap fleets, because they can split up and do insane volley damage. to kill most sub caps in one hit (this has nothing to do with the DD because they can no longer target subcaps with the DD)

This problem is exacerbated by the fact that they can refit in combat swapping out tank for damage mods and tracking enhancers/tracking computers. So a given titan will be running without a tank and just with full damage mods, then if he gets attacked he can quickly switch out to a super tank meaning there is no drawback to this tactic.

That is why this thread got "derailed" to a refitting conversation because its absolutely on topic.

No SMA-equipped ship can refit itself, just saying.

The issue isn't whether or not the Titans have SMAs (they could always use SC or carrier SMAs if they didn't), it's how SMAs work.

E: also, good to know about the week-long holiday in Iceland! Lucky duders :3

the problem i think that you have is that your vision for the titan is not the same as CCPs; they have stated that the titan is supposed to be the anti capital ship, meaning you bring in titans to counter fleets of dreads, not the other way around.

I can understand your confusion though, since dreads and titans basically serve the same function (anti capital/anti structure), titans just do it better and cost more.

No whether or not this is a good vision is a discussion for another thread, but to that end, I suggest the following:
1. Change the DD to 1,000,000 base damage
2. Change the DD cap usage, and isotope usage to 1/3 of normal
3. Remove all guns/missiles from the titans
4. Change the DD operation skill to "Allows the use of the Doomsday module. One extra module can be fitted per skill level."

This would expand the anti capital capabilities of the titans while removing their anti-structure and anti-sub-cap abilities.
I would include with this change, the removal of the "disallows remote repair" effect of the siege module (not the triage module) that way:
carriers + dreads would counter supercarriers which couldnt put out the alpha to kill a cap ship
titans would counter carriers + dreads because they could just start eliminating ships
supercarriers would counter titans who would be mainly immune to the DD effect.

Thoughts?

Of this I am aware love you goons thinking this is my first rodeo.

Removing the Titan SMA's would reduce the number of ships able to be refitted in any large scale fight where they would be fielded and as stated befor IMO they should not have one.

Granted they could use other carriers / super carriers to refit off but at least the supporting role of the carrier / super carrier would be getting used.

Why should a group of Titans beable to just blap around refitting at will with no support ???

I stand by my previous post

Why not add a new high-slot or mid-slot MODULE that prevents combat re-fitting of the targeted ship?

This offers a new tactical tool to counter re-fitting and adds to emergent gameplay, without doing away with refitting entirely.

CCP was talking about adding new modules anyway.

How about this one?

Remove titans from game give all titan owners 100b per titans +titan skills .

So tactics that give smaller fleets a chance against blobs and supercaps are going away. Got it.

Seriously, I get having pre-fight fitting decisions being important. LOADING MODS FOR ADDITIONAL FITTINGS IN YOUR CARRIER IS A PRE-FIGHT FITTING DECISION. What's more important is it is a decision that allows an outnumbered fleet to bring more to a fight than it could otherwise. R&K has (very publicly) shows how they used it to tank supers with standard caps. This change doesn't do much to nerf titans. From what I've been told, nearly any situation where a titan gets pinned on the field it's either going to die or it isn't and the fit don't matter at that point. If you DO want to use this to nerf titans... fine. Titans can only refit at a POS or from a supercarrier. Don't nerf subcaps. That's a ridiculous solution to problems caused by supers.

Chuckling IRL about the idea of letting Titans mount 5, 1m HP DDs, then saying "supercarriers would counter Titans because they would be mostly immune to the DD effect."

If by "mostly immune," you mean, "1-3 supercarriers dying every shot," then yeah. Pretty much immune.

I don't think I'll ever understand where the whole "pro-doomsdays" crowd is coming from with their arguments. DDs are a massive alpha, totally zero-skill weapon mounted to ships that can then fit entirely for tank without sacrificing any offensive capability whatsoever. They're pretty much the antithesis of everything EVE claims to stand for: they require no fitting compromises to use, they do so much damage that they alpha most caps (yes, in practice you can fit dreads to tank a DD or two, but only because everyone flies buses and Avatars), the only constraint on their usage is "you must be in lock range," and it's been scientifically proven that they hate fun.

If I were CCP I would do pretty much the exact opposite thing: remove doomsdays entirely, vastly reduce Titans' damage bonus to XL weapons, and introduce a new type of turret that Titans could use to do massive damage to structures and caps at the cost of being able to track anything smaller in all but the most contrived situations.

Unlike DDs, guns require fitting compromises based on your desire to DPS vs tank, require some skill / foresight to use (you must plan on an engagement range by choosing LR or shortrange guns, then drop at that range from your target and maintain that range to be effective), and spread damage out over time (allowing hostiles the chance to rep through it if they're clever) rather than simply axing a hostile capital per DD every ten minutes.

Death to doomsdays, yes to guns. Give Titans access to a variety of guns that they can fit to perform different roles. This will provide the game with needed variety and force Titan pilots to make fitting compromises / not be terrible in order to be effective on the battlefield.




Sorry for assuming, but to my credit there has been a series of obvious highsec-dwellers who've posted ITT about how unfair it is that Titans can refit themselves. v0v

Also to my credit: your argument is still silly. Seriously when are Titans fielded without 2-3 their quantity of supercarriers? Hint: driveby DDs of traveling caps. And that's it. In any fleet battle there are always going to be supercarriers with a titan blob. Probably regular carriers as well (people use them to feed supers cap after jumps).





Skill yourself. (For DD Op 5, then hope CCP implements your ridiculous idea!)

But, really, why do you feel it must be that way? I hope I don't come across as hyperbolic, but please let me air a thought along the lines you state:

Since Crucible 1.0, and I believe somewhere along mid-Incarna, we started to see erosion in the world of fluid, adaptable combat and the tactics and forethought that go with this. As obscure as it may be, this pretty much started with the nerf to the Orca's maintenance bay in highsec, for reasons stated that anyone who used this facility during combat could attest were pretty far from the truth. Then came the one and two jabs more recently concerning scooping ships and so on.

Now, we're looking at the last possible bastion of dynamic capability during combat, and that is the (effective) killing off of refitting in situ during a fight, a tactic which others have pointed out is very much niche, and requires skill, knowledge, and yes, quite an additional risk in many cases to pull off right.

At a time when the environment of EVE should, and in many cases, is becoming more dynamic, why are the various avenues we have to be dynamic ourselves being closed down? You guys in the Game Designer chairs should be nurturing every possible way to give every player tools which amplify the knowledge we gain through experience. Instead, with maintenance bay and fitting services nerfs, and in the Crimewatch department, Suspect flags, we're seeing a flattening of the EVE strategy landscape. A flat landscape is a boring, formulaic landscape. It is not dynamic. Fights should not be bounded by tight mechanics rules, fights should be bounded by who is most clever, the most experienced.

How's about this for a compromise? Expanding on an idea proposed in Ripard Teg's blog comments.

Keep in-flight refitting, but with the following penalties.

For sub-capitals that are currently targeted, any module that gets put onto a ship through refitting defaults to offline, needing capacitor to be put online as though you were flying unsupported, meaning you have to either wait for your cap to recharge after each module goes online, or call for logi cap support.

For any ship with an onboard jump drive (IE capitals, super-capitals), whether targeted or not, in-flight refitting would put every module aboard ship offline. That way, a Titan could refit, but would need massive support (escorts, logi) to bring its systems back online quickly, and force the cap-ship pilot into some hard tactical and strategic choices about what to bring up first. Sacrifice guns for tank? Abandon your defenses to bring up the doomsday?

(Possible implementation: if a ship has the "onboard jump drive" flag set, then opening a fitting service from a non-station would temporarily drop that ship's powergrid to zero, off-lining all modules. PG comes back as soon as the fitting window is closed.)

That way, in-flight refitting is available - and can be used effectively if there's a lull in combat, or if a gang is willing to pause in transit between combat zones, but becomes more dangerous under fire. And imagine the tactical possibilities if your fleet has caught a Titan with its britches down, and you've got to decide how best to take it out - primary the logi's feeding it cap? Primary the Titan before it can bring its defenses online? And what is the Titan pilot going to bring up first? Is he going to try to tank it until he can bring up the guns? Bring up the jump drive? Or is he going to go for broke and online his doomsday?