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EVE Alliance Tournament Discussion

 
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About the characters in AT
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Willl Adama
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-03-12 14:47:59 UTC
Daisai wrote:
Willl Adama wrote:
I'm not saying that skill points are irrelevant, but you really shouldn't think that having more skill points than other players is a free ticket to anything in the AT (or in the rest of eve for that matter).

No amount of skill points will save you from losing in this game if you don't know what you are doing. It's not a coincidence that it's been the same few alliances that has been dominating the tournament over the last years, and I'm fairly certain it has nothing to do with sp whatsoever.

It's true that you don't go and win the AT with a bunch of 3 week old characters (played by people who has played the game for 3 weeks), but then again you wouldn't win either way if those same players had maxed skills.

oh, btw. Some of the frequetly used ships in many succesful tournament setups don't take much SP at all to be used to their full potential. Destroyers for example, and interdictors/EAFS aren't too bad either.



Destroyer or frigate fitted with all skills on 5 so thats also the support skills and navigation skills take around 430 days to learn.
So much for not taking to long to train for a small ship.

And sure if you dont know what to do you will loss anyway, i also sometimes see players who have older characters then me who dont know how to fit their ships.

Only when you have 2 players/teams fighting eachother and their setup is the same and they basicly know what to do.
Having a character in your team with lvl 3 skills for their ship will basicly bottleneck the performance of the team.


I don't know why you think you'd need every single support skill at lvl 5 in order to be effective.

My own sp distribution is one hell of a mess although I do have a decent amount (like 45m probably) but I don't have perfect skills at all for any ship in the game, yet I don't recall a single situation where I can blame a loss on lack of SP (even when I had way less of it).

I would honestly be more comfortable being in a match where i could pick 9 players from my corp/alliance playing on alts with half the sp or less of our opposition than playing alongside 9 random people with max sp

Hi
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#22 - 2012-03-12 14:52:18 UTC
Because at high end pvp you want to have every single bit of advantage you can get.
Dhakgar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-03-18 09:53:39 UTC
Daisai wrote:
Because at high end pvp you want to have every single bit of advantage you can get.


the guy from hydra obviously doesnt know what pvp is.

:3
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#24 - 2012-03-19 04:20:46 UTC
For logi's in a pvp battle you need logi 5 to be succesfull, you cant show up with logi lvl 2 for example and expect to be succesfull no matter how you play.
For reconships you also want at least level 4 recon if not 5 due to the range of heavy neuts on battleships.

Those are just 2 examples i can think of by ships i fly when i try to find pvp in this game.
Both those skills take around 25 days to learn which is a very long time.
Ishanmae
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-04-05 09:23:38 UTC
Daisai wrote:
Because at high end pvp you want to have every single bit of advantage you can get.



Have you even bothered to check whom you were replying to?

Do check the website EveIsEasy from his sig, and you'll see that player skill matters much more than the difference between lvl 4 and lvl 5 skills. (Btw Willl, great job on those vids!)

I agree that training skills to level 5 is time consuming, but most often, the difference between level 4 and 5 will be marginal. Sure it's worth it... sure it gives you an edge... But as Willl said, the occasions where you can blame your ship going kaboom on your SP are rare enough!

Now, don't take my word for it, I've had very little time to spend in EVE for a long while, and have very little PvP experience. But if you check previous footage of the AT, you'll see that most of the wins could be attributed to either meta-gaming (or good guessing skills, who knows?!?) resulting in bringing the exact counter to the other team, or to appropriate tactical choices.
valerydarcy
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-04-06 14:43:24 UTC  |  Edited by: valerydarcy
Daisai wrote:
Arpad Elo wrote:
If you want, you can buy a character to take part in the tourney.


That is not really the option im looking for.
Spending 60 billion or so to match some players their skillpoints is a bit to much.

Since there isnt really anyone who can give me a clear answer to this i must assume that i was correct.
That the alliance tournament is nothing more then a easymode get together of the higher sp players and that new players have no chance in these tournaments.


why dont you partaking in the 2012 olympics whilst youre at it? oh yea, because the athletes dedicate years of their lives in order to reach the required standard.

same applies here. not to say low skilled pilots cant partake, they just wont necessarily do as well as those that have played and gained experience over many years. such is life.

Post with your main™
David Cedarbridge
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-04-06 17:13:26 UTC
I like how a player whining about SP is here to tell higher SP players how it is to play the game at higher SP.
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#28 - 2012-04-06 20:27:54 UTC
valerydarcy wrote:
Daisai wrote:
Arpad Elo wrote:
If you want, you can buy a character to take part in the tourney.


That is not really the option im looking for.
Spending 60 billion or so to match some players their skillpoints is a bit to much.

Since there isnt really anyone who can give me a clear answer to this i must assume that i was correct.
That the alliance tournament is nothing more then a easymode get together of the higher sp players and that new players have no chance in these tournaments.


why dont you partaking in the 2012 olympics whilst youre at it? oh yea, because the athletes dedicate years of their lives in order to reach the required standard.

same applies here. not to say low skilled pilots cant partake, they just wont necessarily do as well as those that have played and gained experience over many years. such is life.



That reply of your is so full of **** i just had to reply to it.

First of in real life if you are going to compare a game to it, the result in the ending of a match also depends on the dedication a player gives to the training.
So the more practice the faster a certain skill gets improved.
This is not the case in eve online where you can afk in a station for 6 years and basicly reach the same amount of skillpoints and fly the same ships as a player who actively pvp's.

So this is not real life so dont start bullshiting and compare a game like eve to real life.

And about David Cedarbridge his post.

Your post kinda contradicts what the people who disagree with me are trying to say.
Your post now says that amount SP does matter.

And im not only saying how pvp is in eve online at higher SP im saying after years of experience in high end gaming how high end gaming works.
David Cedarbridge
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-04-06 20:46:04 UTC  |  Edited by: David Cedarbridge
Daisai wrote:


And about David Cedarbridge his post.

Your post kinda contradicts what the people who disagree with me are trying to say.
Your post now says that amount SP does matter.

And im not only saying how pvp is in eve online at higher SP im saying after years of experience in high end gaming how high end gaming works.

I'm glad you're capable of handling points of view that are not all the same. :rolleyes: My point is that you do not seem to have a real concept of how skill points actually impact combat and gameplay. Yet, for some reason, you feel the need to lecture people on how oppressed you feel by people who have more than you do. Either way around, you're a bit too excited about things and this thread in general. I'd suggest you take a step back and consider why you feel that a character who cannot invest a month worth of SP into training a ship to what you seem to think is an "adequate" level for this tournament, should be able to participate at the same level as others before you start acting entitled.

EVE is a game of investments. Time, SP, ISK, etc are all different investments made to sculpt a player's experience in the game. You are not entitled to what you have not invested in. With that said, a person who invests more than another in any one of these sections than another would expect to have some advantage over another in some way. However, you seem to have an issue understanding how big that gap really is. I don't have 15m SP, but I would not and do not feel at all worried about flying a Thasher or any other ship that I can fly or have trained towards flying. I do not feel that I would be greatly disadvantaged by doing so because some other guy has 35m SP and is flying around in a blinged out faction battleship.
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#30 - 2012-04-06 20:54:22 UTC
David Cedarbridge wrote:
Daisai wrote:


And about David Cedarbridge his post.

Your post kinda contradicts what the people who disagree with me are trying to say.
Your post now says that amount SP does matter.

And im not only saying how pvp is in eve online at higher SP im saying after years of experience in high end gaming how high end gaming works.

I'm glad you're capable of handling points of view that are not all the same. :rolleyes: My point is that you do not seem to have a real concept of how skill points actually impact combat and gameplay. Yet, for some reason, you feel the need to lecture people on how oppressed you feel by people who have more than you do. Either way around, you're a bit too excited about things and this thread in general. I'd suggest you take a step back and consider why you feel that a character who cannot invest a month worth of SP into training a ship to what you seem to think is an "adequate" level for this tournament, should be able to participate at the same level as others before you start acting entitled.



According to your first post i dont need to point out to you examples of how having all skills at 5 give a bigger advantage then players who dont.
Since according to your post knowledge of this game is determined by the amount of skillpoints someone has, which is wrong ofc and your post is a clear example of that.

Anyway, my question i asked at first is answerd.
That is that the characters in the tournament are not setup just for the tournament and therefor new players will not have the same chance as older players.
David Cedarbridge
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-04-06 21:03:19 UTC
Daisai wrote:
David Cedarbridge wrote:
Daisai wrote:


And about David Cedarbridge his post.

Your post kinda contradicts what the people who disagree with me are trying to say.
Your post now says that amount SP does matter.

And im not only saying how pvp is in eve online at higher SP im saying after years of experience in high end gaming how high end gaming works.

I'm glad you're capable of handling points of view that are not all the same. :rolleyes: My point is that you do not seem to have a real concept of how skill points actually impact combat and gameplay. Yet, for some reason, you feel the need to lecture people on how oppressed you feel by people who have more than you do. Either way around, you're a bit too excited about things and this thread in general. I'd suggest you take a step back and consider why you feel that a character who cannot invest a month worth of SP into training a ship to what you seem to think is an "adequate" level for this tournament, should be able to participate at the same level as others before you start acting entitled.



According to your first post i dont need to point out to you examples of how having all skills at 5 give a bigger advantage then players who dont.
Since according to your post knowledge of this game is determined by the amount of skillpoints someone has, which is wrong ofc and your post is a clear example of that.

Anyway, my question i asked at first is answerd.
That is that the characters in the tournament are not setup just for the tournament and therefor new players will not have the same chance as older players.


If you're going to keep trying to make my points for me I think you'd be better off talking to yourself, since you seem rather fond of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

I have stated (and your very poor English skills have made it very clear that you haven't read what I've said) that first-hand use of skills makes one more informed of how they actually impact play.

And again, to your question you seem to be ignoring answers to, a counter question: why should characters who are not skilled to fly pvp ships have an equal footing against those are skilled to fly those ships and to fly them well?
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#32 - 2012-04-06 21:29:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Daisai
Because its a tournament.
Tournaments should be based on the players and team skills not on the ingame skills learned on a live server.

Anyway since this is not the case the alliance tournament is noting more then a tournament of the one who has the most skillpoints focused in combat.
David Cedarbridge
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-04-06 22:11:25 UTC  |  Edited by: David Cedarbridge
Daisai wrote:
Because its a tournament.
Tournaments should be based on the players and team skills on the ingame skills learned on a live server.


Amusingly, that's exactly how it works. Players and team skills combined with their ingame skills on the live server. I'm glad to see that you really do like the system as it has worked for the last 9 tournaments.

Daisai wrote:
Anyway since this is not the case the alliance tournament is noting more then a tournament of the one who has the most skillpoints focused in combat.


Just because you keep saying it, does not make it true.
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#34 - 2012-04-07 12:10:31 UTC
Made a typo in my last post.
It should NOT be based on the amount of skillpoints you have, which is the case right now in the alliance tournament.

You as a team simply do not have a chance when your skills are learned to lvl 2 or 3 of a certain ship against a team who has all their relevant skill learned to 5.
There are plenty of examples of ships not working without having at least level 4 skills learned.
valerydarcy
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-04-07 22:35:48 UTC
Daisai wrote:
valerydarcy wrote:
Daisai wrote:
Arpad Elo wrote:
If you want, you can buy a character to take part in the tourney.


That is not really the option im looking for.
Spending 60 billion or so to match some players their skillpoints is a bit to much.

Since there isnt really anyone who can give me a clear answer to this i must assume that i was correct.
That the alliance tournament is nothing more then a easymode get together of the higher sp players and that new players have no chance in these tournaments.


why dont you partaking in the 2012 olympics whilst youre at it? oh yea, because the athletes dedicate years of their lives in order to reach the required standard.

same applies here. not to say low skilled pilots cant partake, they just wont necessarily do as well as those that have played and gained experience over many years. such is life.



That reply of your is so full of **** i just had to reply to it.

First of in real life if you are going to compare a game to it, the result in the ending of a match also depends on the dedication a player gives to the training.
So the more practice the faster a certain skill gets improved.
This is not the case in eve online where you can afk in a station for 6 years and basicly reach the same amount of skillpoints and fly the same ships as a player who actively pvp's.

So this is not real life so dont start bullshiting and compare a game like eve to real life.

And about David Cedarbridge his post.

Your post kinda contradicts what the people who disagree with me are trying to say.
Your post now says that amount SP does matter.

And im not only saying how pvp is in eve online at higher SP im saying after years of experience in high end gaming how high end gaming works.


afk for 6 years and win eve? the only thing youd succeed at is making yourself look a fool. have you afk'd for 6 years?

Post with your main™
cratais
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2012-04-08 01:13:14 UTC
Daisai wrote:
valerydarcy wrote:
[quote=Daisai][quote=Arpad Elo]If you want, you can buy a character to take part in the tourney.

This is not the case in eve online where you can afk in a station for 6 years and basicly reach the same amount of skillpoints and fly the same ships as a player who actively pvp's..



Well you are right even though that will be a boring way to spend your time in eve but I can guarantee once that player who sat in station for 6 years undocks and goes to pick a fight with a 6 month old character who has been pvping since he/she started the game the 6 month old character will rip the 6 year old character apart.

skill points are only there to allow you to use certain mods or fly certain ships it has nothing to do with your skills as a pilot no matter how many skill points you have if you dont know how to properly fit your ship or fly it you we always get stomped on by a much more skilled pilot with a lot less skill points.

and if you think frigates are useless in fleet fight join RVB and you will find out just how useless they are when the month old players flying them got your ship webbed, scrammed,neuted, and target disrupted while the dps ships are burning your ship down
valerydarcy
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-04-08 14:26:00 UTC
cratais wrote:
Daisai wrote:
valerydarcy wrote:
[quote=Daisai][quote=Arpad Elo]If you want, you can buy a character to take part in the tourney.

This is not the case in eve online where you can afk in a station for 6 years and basicly reach the same amount of skillpoints and fly the same ships as a player who actively pvp's..



Well you are right even though that will be a boring way to spend your time in eve but I can guarantee once that player who sat in station for 6 years undocks and goes to pick a fight with a 6 month old character who has been pvping since he/she started the game the 6 month old character will rip the 6 year old character apart.

skill points are only there to allow you to use certain mods or fly certain ships it has nothing to do with your skills as a pilot no matter how many skill points you have if you dont know how to properly fit your ship or fly it you we always get stomped on by a much more skilled pilot with a lot less skill points.

and if you think frigates are useless in fleet fight join RVB and you will find out just how useless they are when the month old players flying them got your ship webbed, scrammed,neuted, and target disrupted while the dps ships are burning your ship down


quite right. it is and always has been the case that the people who dont understand this simple principle are those that fundementally 'dont get' eve.

Post with your main™
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-04-09 09:13:39 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
a team of 6 month old players can and will beat a team of 4 year old, higher sp character with bad piloting skill.

SP does almost nothing for you in the tounry. just have skills at level 4 and you're fine. that 5% bonus won't win you the match.


Maybe we need to rename skill points, as sitting in a station for 6 years, you would have, no skill.

Lets call them Enhancement points. or, EP. Since all they do is enhance your skills you learn by playing eve, and open new and more varied fits and tactics. NOT give you skill.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-04-09 09:17:45 UTC
Daisai wrote:
Because at high end pvp you want to have every single bit of advantage you can get.


hahahaha where is the dislike button?

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-04-09 09:22:42 UTC
Daisai wrote:
For logi's in a pvp battle you need logi 5 to be succesfull, you cant show up with logi lvl 2 for example and expect to be succesfull no matter how you play.
For reconships you also want at least level 4 recon if not 5 due to the range of heavy neuts on battleships.

Those are just 2 examples i can think of by ships i fly when i try to find pvp in this game.
Both those skills take around 25 days to learn which is a very long time.


ok I know I'm spaming posts but ehatever. I am a logi pilot with 45 million sp, and you have no idea what you're talking about. Getting logi 5 is important, and you do need it to be a good pilot. But getting to level 5 logi only takes 30 days or so. So one month. You don't need all of the shield rep skills at level 5, that extra 5% will not keep anyone alive. Sure I got them after a while, but I was great logi pilot even without them. I have like what, 3 losses of logi ships?

I've flown in 100s of combat situations. but if you know what your doing and your team does what it should, you'll never lose a logiship.

you keep each other alive, and your team keeps tacklers off you at all costs. The sp is not important.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg