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Armor repairer vs Shield boosters
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#41 - 2012-04-07 08:29:02 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
As stated, armor != shields.

-Most active tanked armor ships have the slot-layout, cap, and grid to fit dual armor reps. Most shield ships can only fit one booster effectively.

-Armor tanking gets an oversize plate (1600mm), the highest shield extender (large) is comparable to the 800mm plate.

-Shield tanking gets an oversized booster (XL booster) and a shield boost amplifier (I think its ~25% bonus to rep).

-Active shield tanking is more cap-intensive and reps at the beginning of the cycle. Active armor tanking reps at the end of the cycle, but is much more cap efficient.

-Armor tanking doesn't use up utility midslots, shield tanking typically does. Active shield tanking (usually) doesn't use up potential damage mods in the low slots.

-Armor gets more variety in their resist mods, getting passive invulns (Energized and non-energized adaptive nanos), passive damage-specific passive hardners (Energized and non-energized), and active hardners. Shield gets active invulns and hardners that are cap dependant but stronger than armor equivalent, but only one type of passive hardner.


So yeah, armor and shield active tanking are quite different, as are the slot layouts and fitting specs of the ships that use both tanks.


Passive shield tanking causes your signature radious to bloat, which has serious consequences.

As far as I know, armour plates add mass to your ship, which makes it slow. So shield ships are faster but easier to hit.
Sonny Dang
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-04-07 08:53:59 UTC
Quote:
You did read my post? My point was really that you cannot talk about "they", as active tanking works spectacularly on Myrmidon, while on Brutix the crazy amount of deeps is generally seen as more desirable.


I wouldn't say triple repping is "spectacularly" good. While the Myrmidon does what it is meant for, the fact that you need not one, not two but three reppers to tank moderately is very disappointing. On top of that, why can't the brutix, which also has repair bonus, do the same, at least to the point where it can tank decently with one or two reppers?

Quote:
'm completely against your idea that ships should have just a single "proper way to fly". Fitting ships is huge part of the sandbox, why do you sound like you wish to take that freedom away? I love tweaking fits and see what I can make them do. And I wouldn't call my gank Brutix improper, it's... indecent Twisted


I disagree as well. However, I believe that ships should be able to be fitted for what it is meant to do. The Brutix is meant to be active armor tanked and NOT shield tanked. But like mentioned above, due to a number of reasons, people would rather shield tank because of the simple reason that it cannot do what it was meant for. So, at this moment, the repair bonus on the Brutix is a wasted feature

Also, the Brutix is not for ganking like the Talos. Honestly, what can a electron blastes do?
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-04-09 00:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Biced
this thread is a rant

myrm tanks better than the brutix cause of the tier system(more low and med slots) which is being looked at.

taking links, drugs, implants and faction into account you get about the same active tanks on both armor and shields

active shield setups do more dps while having less tackle/cap. (also more speed)
so yeah a maelstrom with no prop and web that gets tackle by a bc wount be able to track and that amazing dps you see in eft wount do **** to a bc that orbits you @ 500m.

an active tanking hype is a beast, while having less eft dps than a mael the mix of ions and electrons and a web has more real dps, and the dual cap boosters will keep you alive alot longer if you are being neuted.

dual rep brutix has a better tank than a shield boosting cyclone if no links/implants/faction.
same tank with all the above. (a bit better cap on the brutix but cyclone doesnt need cap to run guns)
about the same tank with drugs and crystals and no links.
as been said brutix can get 1.2k dps with heat and some cheap implants.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#44 - 2012-04-09 00:26:33 UTC
Biced wrote:
this thread is a rant


taking links, drugs, implants and faction into account you get about the same active tanks on both armor and shields



So wrong man, just so wrong.
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2012-04-09 00:43:48 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Biced wrote:
this thread is a rant


taking links, drugs, implants and faction into account you get about the same active tanks on both armor and shields



So wrong man, just so wrong.


make it interesting run some number, cause all there is in this thread right now is some rant people pull out of the ass.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-04-09 16:48:31 UTC
the problem with these active rep boats (mrym and Hyperion) is so numerous for PVP its almost worthless except very small gang/1v1 kind of stuff. Which is why buffer (either shield or armor is used.) Which also means 1 of the 2 ship bonuses for the ship is wasted, which makes them less than optimal and thus far less flown. If there is anything I wish CCP would do is get rid of these armor rep bonuses for these two ships. But anyways...

1) Fact: You really can't kite in a armor repping Mrym or Hyp so you will be fighting in close. This also really has to be done for weapons choice and the slow speed of drones (particularly the heavies). If you try to be clever and try to put long range guns and active rep presents some serious fitting issues and for the myrm makes the drones worthless. (and sentries are no solution as they suck for most pvp situations)

2) So that said a 3 rep mrym if fully gang bonused/exile boosted etc is decent until 1-2 ships put neuts on it. Even with the dual cap boosters you can find yourself struggling. And when your cargo is empty, you die. (ie why they are always fit with auto cannons-no cap usage). The dps of a triple rep mrym is rather meh...
3) And you will be in neut range because of point 1. Heavy neuts absolutely kill this set up and 1-2 high alpha ships on the field will rip it to pieces (tornado for example or even 2-3 destroyers)
4) The hyp is even more ineffective because you are going to use hybrids on it. So now you have cap hungry guns, cap hungry mid slots, you have to mwd to get into range, you have to turn armor reps on, its sig radius is huge so you take max damage from torps etc. So cap is a issue and then 1-2 ships puts a neut on you and your dead in the water. Plus the hyp doesn't really have the low slots for a proper armor tank with active reps. I won't even get into its pathetic drone capability. Thus its the baby seal of the BS fleet. At the end of the day, blasters need to not use CAP before any of these boats will work... its just a mess. Anyways the long list of how these boats are broken are almost too long to list.
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2012-04-09 18:14:46 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
the problem with these active rep boats (mrym and Hyperion) is so numerous for PVP its almost worthless except very small gang/1v1 kind of stuff. Which is why buffer (either shield or armor is used.) Which also means 1 of the 2 ship bonuses for the ship is wasted, which makes them less than optimal and thus far less flown. If there is anything I wish CCP would do is get rid of these armor rep bonuses for these two ships. But anyways...

1) Fact: You really can't kite in a armor repping Mrym or Hyp so you will be fighting in close. This also really has to be done for weapons choice and the slow speed of drones (particularly the heavies). If you try to be clever and try to put long range guns and active rep presents some serious fitting issues and for the myrm makes the drones worthless. (and sentries are no solution as they suck for most pvp situations)

2) So that said a 3 rep mrym if fully gang bonused/exile boosted etc is decent until 1-2 ships put neuts on it. Even with the dual cap boosters you can find yourself struggling. And when your cargo is empty, you die. (ie why they are always fit with auto cannons-no cap usage). The dps of a triple rep mrym is rather meh...
3) And you will be in neut range because of point 1. Heavy neuts absolutely kill this set up and 1-2 high alpha ships on the field will rip it to pieces (tornado for example or even 2-3 destroyers)
4) The hyp is even more ineffective because you are going to use hybrids on it. So now you have cap hungry guns, cap hungry mid slots, you have to mwd to get into range, you have to turn armor reps on, its sig radius is huge so you take max damage from torps etc. So cap is a issue and then 1-2 ships puts a neut on you and your dead in the water. Plus the hyp doesn't really have the low slots for a proper armor tank with active reps. I won't even get into its pathetic drone capability. Thus its the baby seal of the BS fleet. At the end of the day, blasters need to not use CAP before any of these boats will work... its just a mess. Anyways the long list of how these boats are broken are almost too long to list.


so...
you talk about neuts.
a dual cap boosting myrm or hype have way less trubble with neuts than active tanked maelstrom/cyclone.
you need 4 heavy neuts to break the dual rep of a hype solo. a cane with 2 neuts wount break a triple rep myrm.

then you talk about kiting. in a ship that is fit to brawl?
then you say that you cant active tank alpha... no **** broski.

then you say that hype is ineffective at brawling cause you are using blasters? with full tackle?
wait what? huge sig radius? you need to target paint it in order to do full damage with t2 torps....
1-2 ship puts a neut on you? dude i cant break hype reps with a triple heavy neut phoon solo. (while i have no problems doing so to lets say a maelstrom)
baby seal of bs fleet? gal have no fleet battle ships....

what a mindless rant lol
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-04-09 18:27:23 UTC
Yabba Addict wrote:
Because variety is a good thing, contrary to popular belief



That's why Drakes and Canes are everywhere. Nice try Lol
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-04-09 18:30:29 UTC
Salpad wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
As stated, armor != shields.

-Most active tanked armor ships have the slot-layout, cap, and grid to fit dual armor reps. Most shield ships can only fit one booster effectively.

-Armor tanking gets an oversize plate (1600mm), the highest shield extender (large) is comparable to the 800mm plate.

-Shield tanking gets an oversized booster (XL booster) and a shield boost amplifier (I think its ~25% bonus to rep).

-Active shield tanking is more cap-intensive and reps at the beginning of the cycle. Active armor tanking reps at the end of the cycle, but is much more cap efficient.

-Armor tanking doesn't use up utility midslots, shield tanking typically does. Active shield tanking (usually) doesn't use up potential damage mods in the low slots.

-Armor gets more variety in their resist mods, getting passive invulns (Energized and non-energized adaptive nanos), passive damage-specific passive hardners (Energized and non-energized), and active hardners. Shield gets active invulns and hardners that are cap dependant but stronger than armor equivalent, but only one type of passive hardner.


So yeah, armor and shield active tanking are quite different, as are the slot layouts and fitting specs of the ships that use both tanks.


Passive shield tanking causes your signature radious to bloat, which has serious consequences.

As far as I know, armour plates add mass to your ship, which makes it slow. So shield ships are faster but easier to hit.



So should we get to the conclusion: armor ships don't have enough mid slots and there should be mid slot dmg mods for armor tankers?

Lol
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-04-09 19:58:36 UTC

so...
you talk about neuts.
a dual cap boosting myrm or hype have way less trubble with neuts than active tanked maelstrom/cyclone.
you need 4 heavy neuts to break the dual rep of a hype solo. a cane with 2 neuts wount break a triple rep myrm.

then you talk about kiting. in a ship that is fit to brawl?
then you say that you cant active tank alpha... no **** broski.

then you say that hype is ineffective at brawling cause you are using blasters? with full tackle?
wait what? huge sig radius? you need to target paint it in order to do full damage with t2 torps....
1-2 ship puts a neut on you? dude i cant break hype reps with a triple heavy neut phoon solo. (while i have no problems doing so to lets say a maelstrom)
baby seal of bs fleet? gal have no fleet battle ships....

what a mindless rant lol[/quote]

Not really, I just don't think you picked up what I was trying to say. So let me see if I can clarify

- All your points are mostly about very small gang 1 v 1 which I said active rep are fine with. All other applications not so much.

- Yes, they are both designed for brawling, but brawling with active reps I find fails more often than just going with a buffer tank due to neuting issues and inability to survive particularly against high alpha boats. I've found serious trouble keeping cap up against neuts particularly when 3-4 canes run the mediums on you and catch you at a bad cycle point. I've flown a Mrym almost exclusively for 1 1/2 years so I do feel somewhat versed in it. I've particularly noticed it having a great deal of difficulty against the high alpha boats, when 3-4 tornado' primary you. I find heavy neuts absolutely difficult to stand up. I have far less experience in the Hype personally but we never seem to have any problem killing these beasts quite quickly when they are active repped.
- yes, they do better than maels/cyclone but you can fight those boats at distance and can do burst vice perma running like the brawlers.

-I talked about kiting because for many ships you can set up a boat either to brawl or to kite. The hurricane for example. I find repping boats that can kite very tough to beat. I was simply pointing out to the OP that is not an option for the Mrym and the Hype. So you are driven to close in engagement. That is all I was trying to point out. But I certainly appreciate you kind and warm words. Always fun posting on these threads.

At the end of the day, the second dps tops over your max repping amount you melt instantly. So in most cases I find buffer much more useful. But again, if your a small gang/1 v 1 kind of guy this is not as much an issue for you. Well, at least until your out of cap charges. It still leaves the majority of fits for the hyperion and Mrym moving to either buffer armor or shield. Which again then wastes a ship bonus.
Arzaiuc
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-04-09 20:00:30 UTC
*Cough* Capacitor Power Relay *Cough*
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#52 - 2012-04-09 20:16:40 UTC
Quote:
I've found serious trouble keeping cap up against neuts particularly when 3-4 canes run the mediums on you and catch you at a bad cycle point. I've flown a Mrym almost exclusively for 1 1/2 years so I do feel somewhat versed in it. I've particularly noticed it having a great deal of difficulty against the high alpha boats, when 3-4 tornado' primary you.


Well, kinda hard to argue that.

I've particularly noticed that most ships have rather ****** time under 8 Medium T2 neuts and primaried by 40K alpha.





.
Sonny Dang
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-04-09 20:27:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonny Dang
Ok, I read people writing up there that they fit both ion and electron on a Hype. Didn't exactly understand why because I've never flown one myself so I went ahead and fitted one in Pyfa. Now I know why they do that ... because there isn't even enough power grid to fit a full set of Ions ... Seriously? Are you ******* kidding me CCP?

Take a good hard look at this http://cl.ly/1C342B0Q2c0I2B0Q3g1Y
Even at Level 5, you can't fit a full rack of Ions? Why? What's the purpose of the 5% bonus to large hybrid turrets anymore if you can't even fit it to the optimal potential? To top it all off, there's that active armor tanking problem ... And that's a pretty damn basic dual rep fitting for a Hype that attempts to utilize the 2 bonus that it's given. I honestly don't know how much simpler that fit can be.

omfg, no wonder no one flies a Hyperion.

You know what CCP, I like this game very much for what a player can do and accomplish and also for the people that you can interact with but to be honest, I think that you fail as game developers on the part of fixing and improving the game. I hope you're reading this CCP ,.!..
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-04-09 21:17:12 UTC
I've noticed that armor buffer tanks better. However shields active tank better.
Perihelion Olenard
#55 - 2012-04-09 21:45:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Sonny Dang wrote:
Ok, I read people writing up there that they fit both ion and electron on a Hype. Didn't exactly understand why because I've never flown one myself so I went ahead and fitted one in Pyfa. Now I know why they do that ... because there isn't even enough power grid to fit a full set of Ions ... Seriously? Are you ******* kidding me CCP?

Take a good hard look at this http://cl.ly/1C342B0Q2c0I2B0Q3g1Y
Even at Level 5, you can't fit a full rack of Ions? Why? What's the purpose of the 5% bonus to large hybrid turrets anymore if you can't even fit it to the optimal potential? To top it all off, there's that active armor tanking problem ... And that's a pretty damn basic dual rep fitting for a Hype that attempts to utilize the 2 bonus that it's given. I honestly don't know how much simpler that fit can be.

omfg, no wonder no one flies a Hyperion.

You know what CCP, I like this game very much for what a player can do and accomplish and also for the people that you can interact with but to be honest, I think that you fail as game developers on the part of fixing and improving the game. I hope you're reading this CCP ,.!..

In order to fit a triple repairer setup with dual cap boosters and a MWD you need all guns to be electrons, and with all level 5s it's short by 4% PG. Once you get the 5% PG implant or fit an ancillary current router it starts to tank good. But, look at how much capacitor and powergrid it needs. It's insane. The ship certainly isn't worth 250 million isk. It's also a pointless ship to plate since the megathron or dominix plates better.
Zaltone
SkyDog Freight and Logistics
#56 - 2012-04-09 22:00:01 UTC
Sonny Dang wrote:
coolbeans, so at the end, both have it's advantages and disadvantages ... nice ...

Anyways, the only effectively armor repper gallente ships that i know are the myrmidon and hyperion because they have the bonus. Does that mean that every other gallente ship should be buffer tank?

I've seen some gallente ships with repairs module but for the majority, ships such as the vexor, thorax, dominix or the megathron, I've never seen anyone fit reppers on them when pvp. Does that mean that these ships are better off buffer tanking and not active tanking?

Have YOU ever fit reppers on these ships when pvping? If so then how did that work?

(I tried active tanking a Talos ... it's the equivalent of active tanking a frigate)



????? dual armor rep domi???????

The Dominix is always, the answer the question doesnt matter!!!!!
Sonny Dang
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-04-10 08:09:29 UTC
Quote:
????? dual armor rep domi???????


Please. The Dominix is not for pvp. I would never take a Dominix into combat because there is always the Megathron.
Besides it does not have a repair bonus, which is absolutely crucial for active armor tanking. Without bonus, not even triple rep can save it.
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2012-04-10 09:59:09 UTC
Sonny Dang wrote:
Quote:
????? dual armor rep domi???????
Please. The Dominix is not for pvp.


I really hope you're trolling...

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Perihelion Olenard
#59 - 2012-04-10 11:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
DeBingJos wrote:
Sonny Dang wrote:
Quote:
????? dual armor rep domi???????
Please. The Dominix is not for pvp.


I really hope you're trolling...

It would seem that most people don't use the large turret bonus it gets. It becomes a big floating brick with the DPS of a heavy missile drake, but with neuting power. It's a waste of 90 mil, IMO.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#60 - 2012-04-10 11:34:32 UTC
Sonny is not trolling, Sonny is just very new at EVE.

.