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Where's the profit in Planetary Interaction?
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Chloey Armstrong
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-09-27 14:03:10 UTC
In the past few days I've made alot of calculations using marketdata from different sources on the internet.
I've made calculations for making T4 products from T3, T2, T1 and even T0 products/materials.

But all come to either break even, or mostly some loss in ISK (and I didn't even include the cost for the command center and building facilities, etc.)

So, can anyone tell me where's the profit in Planetary Interaction?
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#2 - 2011-09-27 14:33:16 UTC
It is a never ending stream of cash flow, given that fact, the only question is how long does it take to break even on your initial investment?

If a man were to start with tier 1 products and set up a system to produce something like rocket fuel, break even comes in a matter of days and it is all profit from that point onward.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#3 - 2011-09-27 14:51:52 UTC
Mechanical Parts: around 5,800 per unit.
Consumer Electronics: Around 5500 per unit.

Call each 6000 for ease of calculation

10 of each is needed to make 3 robotics.
so, 3 robotics costs around 120k to make.

Cheapest I can see them is 45k each. so that's around 15k profit. Though you'll lose some on import and export.

And that's at sell order prices. Buy orders can reduce the price significantly.


Aside from that, manufacturing stuff from scratch reduces your outlay significantly, as you don't have other peoples profit margin to take into account. Doesn't make the raw materials 'free', but your costs go down.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
RaTTuS
BIG
#4 - 2011-09-27 15:56:30 UTC
OP please look at your spreadsheets again

http://eveboard.com/ub/419190933-134.png http://i.imgur.com/kYLoKrM.png

Joshua Vaughn Lampen
Archer Investments Initiative
#5 - 2011-09-27 16:30:00 UTC
There's always some profit to be had in PI. How much depends on how good your spreadsheets and the math that went into them is done. If you couldn't find the profit in your own sheets you need to redo them and properly consider all the costs that go into each production chain. All else fails if you want a spreadsheet that's done properly and shows every little piece of information possible contact me and we can work out an exchange, ISK for my spreadsheet.
Capital T
Doomheim
#6 - 2011-09-27 22:49:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Capital T
Ive been using storm planets only in high sec, sticking to .5 systems for ease... I set up 4 planets for three toons, each planet is storm, and I make plasmoids only, which brings me a bit of profit and Im able to maintain my 300 mil a month easy for my account. :) In nullsec, or wormholes, in a corp, with support, you can make a great profit... be selective of the product you make, perhaps stick to making pos fuels...

I use this to find the perfect systems.... http://www.4ward-eve.ch/pi/finder

I use this for quick pricing. if you use in game, http://fazenda.w-space.org/ - see link "actual price" in game... :)

It allows me to stay in high sec, seeking .5, usually you can get two or three storm planets in a .5.... I do split them up if i need, but try to keep them close so i dont have to spend an hour warping around. I keep these systems as close as possible to trade hubs as well.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-09-27 23:31:42 UTC
I have 3 toons doing PI in a class 1 WH and gross about 1.2 bil a month. Plenty of profit in PI
Chloey Armstrong
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-09-28 09:36:44 UTC
Thanks for all the replies.
Clearly there are alot of ways to go into PI, but I was just wondering why mine doesn't 'compute'.
This is the way I calculated it:

The making of 10 Sterile Conduits (T4) from T1 products using avarage buy and sell market prices:

400 Water: 400 * 469 = 187600 ISK
1600 Chiral Structures: 1600 * 520 = 832000 ISK
1600 Silicon: 1600 * 452 = 723200 ISK
1600 Reactive Metals: 1600 * 393 = 628800 ISK
1600 Toxic Metals: 1600 * 363 = 580800 ISK
1600 Biofuels: 1600 * 212 = 339200 ISK
1600 Proteins: 1600 * 468 = 748800 ISK
1600 Biomass: 1600 * 388 = 620800 ISK
1600 Bacteria: 1600 * 123 = 196800 ISK

Total costs T1 products: 4858000 ISK

Avarage sell price for 10 Sterile Conduits: 10 * 484035 = 4840350 ISK

Loss: 17650 ISK

(Not included cost for building Command Center, Spaceport, 6 Advanced Facilities and 1 HighTech Facility)

Where did I go wrong... or is it just a bad idea to make T4 from T1 products?
AureoLion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-09-28 10:04:08 UTC  |  Edited by: AureoLion
No profit in processing, move along.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#10 - 2011-09-28 10:24:38 UTC
check your prices.

yes, you might have an average of 520 for chiral structures. but when you can buy them for 412.99 in Jita (around a million units), it adjusts the margins significantly.


And buy orders. Seriously, buy orders. Once again, buy orders.

I make stuff (baby indy). I don't buy my trit at sell order prices. I save myself around 0.2 isk a unit with a buy order.

Work out a price that seems reasonable round your hub, stick in an order for it, and wait for it to be filled. Adjust upwards if it isn't. You can save on Jita prices for people that can't be bothered hauling it all.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Xearal
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#11 - 2011-09-28 10:55:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Xearal
another good one:

Extraction of P0s... it's free money, and if you do it in null sec, that's a LOT of free money.
You extract the P0s, make P1s out of it, process them on another planet in high sec to P2s, send them off to Jita or some other tradehub, and presto, profit.

I make about 500M a month doing this on a single toon, just making P2s.

I got 6 planets in null sec extracting and making P1s, I haul them to high sec, where I hand them over to a corpie who doesn't like going to nul sec, he's got a processing planet and gets to keep 10% of the products he manufactures with them, giving him a nice easy income from and gives me P2s which are easier to ship to Jita.

Does railgun ammunition come in Hollow Point?
Chloey Armstrong
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2011-09-28 11:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Chloey Armstrong
Xearal wrote:
another good one:
Extraction of P0s

Can u continue extraction after depletion (whats the max.. 7 or 8 days..) or did u already make enough profit by then and buy a new command center?

Xearal wrote:
another good one:
I got 6 planets in null sec extracting and making P1s, I haul them to high sec

Don't you get attacked/destroyed all the time in null sec doing this..?
Chloey Armstrong
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-09-28 11:23:55 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:

yes, you might have an average of 520 for chiral structures. but when you can buy them for 412.99 in Jita (around a million units), it adjusts the margins significantly.


Is there a place like Jita in Gallente space..?
Bormegil
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2011-09-28 11:42:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bormegil
Yes, it's called Dodixie.

As for getting in and out of nullsec without being caught by the locals? Have you looked into Blockade runners at all? They're specially designed to fit a covert ops cloak, and have a superfast subwarp and warp speed to boot (for a hauler, that is.).

If you stay cloaked except when necessary, it's not that hard. I'm no expert, but I've run quite a few ships back and forth -- generally without even bothering to scout -- and never lost anything more valuable than a Magnate.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#15 - 2011-09-28 11:44:51 UTC
Try Dodixie.

If you need to find something, take a look at eve-central, eve-marketdata or eve-marketeer. All useful price aggregation sites. Average prices aren't that useful (especially if you're not weighting by volume), you really want to deal with an average of the 95th percentile. (thus eliminating all the market manipulating high prices). Or just the lowest sell order, with a decent volume.

Buy what you can get cheap, and process it up. Don't get stuck on 'this is my robotics planet'. as you're not extracting anything, you're flexible on what you can make.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Chloey Armstrong
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-09-28 11:49:26 UTC
Thanks for all the advice and tips guys! Smile
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2011-09-28 12:06:56 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
check your prices.

yes, you might have an average of 520 for chiral structures. but when you can buy them for 412.99 in Jita (around a million units), it adjusts the margins significantly.


And buy orders. Seriously, buy orders. Once again, buy orders.

I make stuff (baby indy). I don't buy my trit at sell order prices. I save myself around 0.2 isk a unit with a buy order.

Work out a price that seems reasonable round your hub, stick in an order for it, and wait for it to be filled. Adjust upwards if it isn't. You can save on Jita prices for people that can't be bothered hauling it all.


/facepalm

Using buyorders do not change the profit calculations.

Explanation: Buy 1000x T0 for 1 isk/unit -> cost = 1000 isk
Sell these for 1.5 isk/unit (lowest sell-order) -> 1500 isk
that is 500 isk trade profit you miss out on if you use these materials to produce T1-2-3-4...

Always calculate costs at lowest sell-order pice. The extra profit you get when using buy-orders is a trade profit, not added value from the production process.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#18 - 2011-09-28 12:22:17 UTC
Buy orders do, on the other hand, reduce your upfront costs. It does increase your profit margin. Even if that profit margin is split with the trade margin.


Using that margin to reduce your sell price might cost you in opportunity, but if it lets you undercut your competitors, you increase your cash-flow, which returns a (slightly smaller profit) faster, which can then be reinvested.

As long as you're not hitting a production bottleneck, cash-flow is very important, rather than squeezing out the largest profit possible.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2011-09-28 12:34:06 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Buy orders do, on the other hand, reduce your upfront costs. It does increase your profit margin. Even if that profit margin is split with the trade margin.


Using that margin to reduce your sell price might cost you in opportunity, but if it lets you undercut your competitors, you increase your cash-flow, which returns a (slightly smaller profit) faster, which can then be reinvested.

As long as you're not hitting a production bottleneck, cash-flow is very important, rather than squeezing out the largest profit possible.


True, your profit increases. And if possible you should use buyorders. I agree with that.

What I'm saying is: Buyorders have no place in your manufacturing profit calculations because they increase the trade pofit, they don't increase the manufacturing profit.

You don't even need to manufacture the goods to get that profit, just buy on buyorders and sell on sell orders. This has absolutely nothing to do with manufacturing. It's just basic trading.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Joshua Vaughn Lampen
Archer Investments Initiative
#20 - 2011-09-28 13:00:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Joshua Vaughn Lampen
DeBingJos wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Buy orders do, on the other hand, reduce your upfront costs. It does increase your profit margin. Even if that profit margin is split with the trade margin.


Using that margin to reduce your sell price might cost you in opportunity, but if it lets you undercut your competitors, you increase your cash-flow, which returns a (slightly smaller profit) faster, which can then be reinvested.

As long as you're not hitting a production bottleneck, cash-flow is very important, rather than squeezing out the largest profit possible.


True, your profit increases. And if possible you should use buyorders. I agree with that.

What I'm saying is: Buyorders have no place in your manufacturing profit calculations because they increase the trade pofit, they don't increase the manufacturing profit.

You don't even need to manufacture the goods to get that profit, just buy on buyorders and sell on sell orders. This has absolutely nothing to do with manufacturing. It's just basic trading.


I have to agree with this. Realistically if you want to produce a product you want to calculate your costs based on the average market price rather than what it would cost using buy orders. The former is more accurate in calculating general availability of goods and profitability. By doing this and the math that's involved we can see that only 13/24 possible production lines in PI are profitable based upon current market prices, taxes, fees and everything else.

However if you plan on doing long-term PI production its best if you do utilize buy orders if possible as it will push costs down slightly and you can build a good sized stockpile of inputs without having to worry about market fluctuations too much.
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