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I hate miners, or another angle on ye olde bot mining issue.
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Lucy Alfrir
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#1 - 2011-09-26 13:50:16 UTC
This is the 2nd time I've tried posting this, so sorry if it's a duplicate, but I searched the fora and I couldn't find any posts by me

I hate miners, I specially hate afk miners and bot/macro miners, I want to do something about it.

I'd like for there to be a virus injecting module that I can fit to my ship and take to the belts which can inject a virus into a miners mining laser stream which then has a chance to destroy their ship and allow me to pick up the loot.

Why am I telling you this? What possible interest could the great CCP have in helping one petty pirate achieve her dreams?

Well I was thinking that when the virus gets into the mining laser it could present the player with a 30min warning, but to clear the virus they'd need to solve a puzzle. The simplest one would be a reCaptcha, but a more gamey non-bot solvable puzzle could be more fun.

Of course I don't expect it to destroy the ship every time, sometimes it could just disable that one mining laser, sometimes cause that one module to be defitted and drop in a can, but sometimes KABLOOIE the ship is destroyed and I get what I want, weeping miners. Course this also gives other pirates an incentive to inject virii and test if miners are bots.

I expect this kind of behavior would be similar to stealing from a can, give the miner's corp aggro against you, but no CONCORD sanction.

I expect this will cause a few miners to weep, but I don't mind having the virus named after me and thus taking all the flak.

So what do people think?
Ezurae
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2011-09-26 14:04:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezurae
what happens if a miner gets the warning and then immediately docks or logs off?

also abuseable against real afk ppl who dont do anything. so maybe an injected virus should only be activated when a high slot module begins a cycle. (no other slots because afk people can have hardners or sensor boosters running)

besides that i like the idea. would really be useful against bots and even makes rp wise sense. But i guess it will be pretty hard to create puzzles that bots won't be able to solve sooner or later.
Goose99
#3 - 2011-09-26 14:45:18 UTC
Mining is not work fit for live people, thus, we have macros for that. Remove mining and buff rat loot to compensate.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-09-26 16:07:26 UTC
Lucy Alfrir wrote:

I hate miners, I specially hate afk miners and bot/macro miners, I want to do something about it.

I expect this kind of behavior would be similar to stealing from a can, give the miner's corp aggro against you, but no CONCORD sanction.

So what do people think?



Thoughts...lets see...what comes to mind...

That you are a pussy. That you want unlimited action to do what you want, without repercussions of CONCORD intervention cause you don't like loosing to such an easy instant response to aggression that results in you loosing. That you don't like people playing your game (ship combat), nor do you like playing their game (brain dead mining). That you do not understand, without someone mining pixel rocks there wouldn't be a supply of material to create ships and without you they woudn't have an income source as well as traders not profiting off either of you (its a circle reach around jerk, goes both ways). That you don't like a defenseless ship, but would glady do anything to destroy a ship that is prone to exploding because its so easy (shooting hulks is like playing a broken arcade game, feel entitled to win even though you cannot loose which equal no challenge). That you think you are Judge Dread and get to wear a Batcowl in front of your monitor while rocking to "Touch" that you feel empowered to decide that a characters with the same Name1-Name5 sitting in the same belt is a macrobot, but because mining is stupidly boring you don't need a program to alt-tab while cycling through them but who cares, that guy is entitled to play EVE how he wants even if its a second job and the only thing you really can do is send in a petition to let the GM's deal with it (cause they are paid to do that) or you can gank them. That the simplest way to deal with a miner is to either gank the hell out of them or...get this its so hilariously stupid...you can avoid belts by not warping to them.

Did I miss anything?
Lucy Alfrir
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#5 - 2011-09-26 16:43:37 UTC
Ezurae wrote:
what happens if a miner gets the warning and then immediately docks or logs off?


I'd say that the virus remains in their laser and when they relog or undock the countdown starts from where it left off.

Ezurae wrote:
also abuseable against real afk ppl who dont do anything. so maybe an injected virus should only be activated when a high slot module begins a cycle. (no other slots because afk people can have hardners or sensor boosters running)


Well I don't like people playing afk, that's not playing, but I did say that the virus takes 1/2 hr to work, which gives plenty of time for bio-breaks &c. I spose that could be extended to an hour, but that makes it less fun for the pirates.

Ezurae wrote:
besides that i like the idea. would really be useful against bots and even makes rp wise sense. But i guess it will be pretty hard to create puzzles that bots won't be able to solve sooner or later.


Which is why I suggested reCaptcha which is an ongoing project to thwart SPAMbots.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#6 - 2011-09-26 16:49:24 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Mining is not work fit for live people, thus, we have macros for that. Remove mining and buff rat loot to compensate.


With all the bots already ratting, what, are you nuts?

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Lucy Alfrir
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#7 - 2011-09-26 16:58:17 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Lucy Alfrir wrote:

I hate miners, I specially hate afk miners and bot/macro miners, I want to do something about it.

I expect this kind of behavior would be similar to stealing from a can, give the miner's corp aggro against you, but no CONCORD sanction.

So what do people think?



Thoughts...lets see...what comes to mind...

That you are a *****. That you want unlimited action to do what you want, without repercussions of CONCORD intervention cause you don't like loosing to such an easy instant response to aggression that results in you loosing. That you don't like people playing your game (ship combat), nor do you like playing their game (brain dead mining). That you do not understand, without someone mining pixel rocks there wouldn't be a supply of material to create ships and without you they woudn't have an income source as well as traders not profiting off either of you (its a circle reach around jerk, goes both ways). That you don't like a defenseless ship, but would glady do anything to destroy a ship that is prone to exploding because its so easy (shooting hulks is like playing a broken arcade game, feel entitled to win even though you cannot loose which equal no challenge). That you think you are Judge Dread and get to wear a Batcowl in front of your monitor while rocking to "Touch" that you feel empowered to decide that a characters with the same Name1-Name5 sitting in the same belt is a macrobot, but because mining is stupidly boring you don't need a program to alt-tab while cycling through them but who cares, that guy is entitled to play EVE how he wants even if its a second job and the only thing you really can do is send in a petition to let the GM's deal with it (cause they are paid to do that) or you can gank them. That the simplest way to deal with a miner is to either gank the hell out of them or...get this its so hilariously stupid...you can avoid belts by not warping to them.

Did I miss anything?


Wow I don't think I should be replying to you you sound like a dangerous lunatic. ;)

I'm not claiming that all afk miners are bots, I dislike afk miners as much as bots. I also dislike mission runners, this is an mmo people should be intereacting with each other, not watching the telly or reading a book, all I'm trying to do is make the least intereactive players (miners) be occasionally forced to pay attention. As for the mission runners, well we can ninja salvage them. ;D

Ganking... well yes, I will gank miners, but my I'm only 2 months old, I haven't got the gunnery/ships skills for that, and in highsec it's an expensive game, I want to be able to hurt (intereact) with miners both cheaply in highsec and without the months of training necessary for highsec ganks.

Mining supports the economy... people always say this when I say I hate miners... Firstly there's recycling which makes minerals just as much as mining, and secondly I'm not stopping mining, just making it a bit more dangerous/intereactive.

Finally I don't want to avoid the miners I want to play with them. At the moment they just sit there like lumps of dough
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#8 - 2011-09-26 19:14:18 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Mining is not work fit for live people, thus, we have macros for that. Remove mining and buff rat loot to compensate.
Lol, if that is the case... permaban all industrial players and have NPC's mine ore/build what you need. There is no reason for anyone else to play the game if you allow ANY macro/bot miners.

*Note: real issue here is CCP loses money. Bots will never be completely banned or removed from the game by CCP; that takes money directly out of their pocket i.e. they lose money.

The reason is 30 day plex sales increase with lower mineral prices, which is why massive bans of all the macro/bots has not already occurred. Same issue Blizzard had with Chinese gold farmers; all the new accounts purchased by gold farmers increased Blizzard profit.

Macro/bot players being banned by CCP would reduce the total number of plex sales, plus the mineral prices would increase due to lower mineral supply. Those increased plex prices reduces affordability and therefore increases difficulty of plexing an account, which would likely prevent some players from playing, thus again reducing CCP profit.
GizzyBoy
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#9 - 2011-09-27 13:09:47 UTC
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Mining is not work fit for live people, thus, we have macros for that. Remove mining and buff rat loot to compensate.
Lol, if that is the case... permaban all industrial players and have NPC's mine ore/build what you need. There is no reason for anyone else to play the game if you allow ANY macro/bot miners.

*Note: real issue here is CCP loses money. Bots will never be completely banned or removed from the game by CCP; that takes money directly out of their pocket i.e. they lose money.

The reason is 30 day plex sales increase with lower mineral prices, which is why massive bans of all the macro/bots has not already occurred. Same issue Blizzard had with Chinese gold farmers; all the new accounts purchased by gold farmers increased Blizzard profit.

Macro/bot players being banned by CCP would reduce the total number of plex sales, plus the mineral prices would increase due to lower mineral supply. Those increased plex prices reduces affordability and therefore increases difficulty of plexing an account, which would likely prevent some players from playing, thus again reducing CCP profit.



mostly we are all doomed, because ice mining, just about the worst job / profession of eve bar none, if it didn't have some people macroing it (not every one macros), you wouldn't be able to buy pos fuel for love or even rl money.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2011-09-27 14:04:02 UTC
Lucy Alfrir wrote:
This is the 2nd time I've tried posting this, so sorry if it's a duplicate, but I searched the fora and I couldn't find any posts by me

I hate miners, I specially hate afk miners and bot/macro miners, I want to do something about it.


I am sure the feeling is mutual. I know I hate you, and I've only known you for five seconds.

Lucy Alfrir wrote:

I'd like for there to be a virus injecting module that I can fit to my ship and take to the belts which can inject a virus into a miners mining laser stream which then has a chance to destroy their ship and allow me to pick up the loot.

Sure. As long as the miners can use the same module to inject a virus into the combat scanner of an attacking ship, so that it also has a chance to immediately explode if the attacker doesn't immediately power off all offensive modules.

Lucy Alfrir wrote:

Why am I telling you this? What possible interest could the great CCP have in helping one petty pirate achieve her dreams?

Because your ego is roughly the same size as Jita?

Lucy Alfrir wrote:

Of course I don't expect it to destroy the ship every time, sometimes it could just disable that one mining laser, sometimes cause that one module to be defitted and drop in a can, but sometimes KABLOOIE the ship is destroyed and I get what I want, weeping miners. Course this also gives other pirates an incentive to inject virii and test if miners are bots.

Because you're obviously the only one playing this single player game.

Lucy Alfrir wrote:


So what do people think?


Personally, I think you're a moron and this is a troll, thus I have responded in kind.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Seraph Cruoris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-09-27 14:40:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Cruoris
Lucy Alfrir wrote:
[Well I don't like people playing afk, that's not playing.....



you lost all your credibility there. so its not a gameplay issue its an issue you have with how people play their games? the idea had some virtues but honestly if its simply cause you dont like afk-ers or people who mine while they study/do whatever then simply pew pew...thing is your idea can become abusive and intrusive in other people's games. its one thing to fight for their lives, its one thing to evade a camp, its another to always be hammered with an anti-virus mini game...what are the restrictions? and no concord actions? so its essentially ticking time bomb for anyone from high sec to null...with 0 repercussions? can i list anymore reasons why this is a bad idea?...

rather have CCP put a small afk timer on the side of the player's name. then just pew pew and get your easy kill rather than put something that will see more abuse than the skill-rewire proposal i remember reading a few days ago...the later being game breaking and yours treading that fine line too...

edit: i like the theme of the idea but not its desired implementation....has a similar feel to something i had suggested for hacking but not like this...nowhere near like this...
Goose99
#12 - 2011-09-27 14:42:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
GizzyBoy wrote:
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Mining is not work fit for live people, thus, we have macros for that. Remove mining and buff rat loot to compensate.
Lol, if that is the case... permaban all industrial players and have NPC's mine ore/build what you need. There is no reason for anyone else to play the game if you allow ANY macro/bot miners.

*Note: real issue here is CCP loses money. Bots will never be completely banned or removed from the game by CCP; that takes money directly out of their pocket i.e. they lose money.

The reason is 30 day plex sales increase with lower mineral prices, which is why massive bans of all the macro/bots has not already occurred. Same issue Blizzard had with Chinese gold farmers; all the new accounts purchased by gold farmers increased Blizzard profit.

Macro/bot players being banned by CCP would reduce the total number of plex sales, plus the mineral prices would increase due to lower mineral supply. Those increased plex prices reduces affordability and therefore increases difficulty of plexing an account, which would likely prevent some players from playing, thus again reducing CCP profit.



mostly we are all doomed, because ice mining, just about the worst job / profession of eve bar none, if it didn't have some people macroing it (not every one macros), you wouldn't be able to buy pos fuel for love or even rl money.


You assume CCP's plex sales increase as price increase in a feedback loop, when the opposite is true.

People unwilling fund their char with plex won't do so at any price.
People who do, will stop when they get the isk amount that meet their needs, which means the higher the plex prices, the fewer they have to buy then sell.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#13 - 2011-09-27 15:06:19 UTC
Lucy Alfrir wrote:
I'd say that the virus remains in their laser and when they relog or undock the countdown starts from where it left off.


Just wow....! When i first read your original post, I din't think would ever read an idea more r'tarded..... then I read that little gem!


So let me get this straight....

You want a virus,
That you can inject into a lazer beam...
From a spaceship...
That can then infect their spaceship...
And blow it up if they don't solve a puzzle...
But if they dock it stays in their lazer.... (that's switched off???)
Then begin counting down again when they undock... (lazer still off at this point)

Simply because people aren't playing a game the way you want them too!

Your Idea makes me want to kick kittens.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#14 - 2011-09-27 15:09:56 UTC
O... M... G...

You just outdid yourself again....

Lucy Alfrir wrote:
Of course I don't expect it to destroy the ship every time, sometimes it could just disable that one mining laser, sometimes cause that one module to be defitted and drop in a can
Shocked

I'm not sure I will ever stop laughing!

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Lucy Alfrir
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#15 - 2011-09-27 18:36:37 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:

>I hate miners, I specially hate afk miners and bot/macro miners, I want to do something about it.
I am sure the feeling is mutual. I know I hate you, and I've only known you for five seconds.


I assume you're a miner

De'Veldrin wrote:

>I'd like for there to be a virus injecting module that I can fit to my ship and take to the belts which can inject a virus into a >miners mining laser stream which then has a chance to destroy their ship and allow me to pick up the loot.
Sure. As long as the miners can use the same module to inject a virus into the combat scanner of an attacking ship, so that it also has a chance to immediately explode if the attacker doesn't immediately power off all offensive modules.


Wait what? So miners get a half hour warning but pirates have to act immediately? That's fair.

De'Veldrin wrote:

>Why am I telling you this? What possible interest could the great CCP have in helping one petty pirate achieve her dreams?
Because your ego is roughly the same size as Jita?

Is Jita particularly big? I thought it was just unreasonably busy.

De'Veldrin wrote:

>Of course I don't expect it to destroy the ship every time, sometimes it could just disable that one mining laser, sometimes >cause that one module to be defitted and drop in a can, but sometimes KABLOOIE the ship is destroyed and I get what I >want, weeping miners. Course this also gives other pirates an incentive to inject virii and test if miners are bots.
Because you're obviously the only one playing this single player game.


But that's my point, it often feels like I am, I rock up next to a miner who's just sat there lasing away at rocks, but actually the player is reading a book or down the pub or whatever, I chat to them in local, I target them, I orbit them in tight circles, and no response at all. I just wanna be able to rattle their cages, elicit some kind of response from them. Or I may as well go back to playing single players games.

De'Veldrin wrote:

>So what do people think?
Personally, I think you're a moron and this is a troll, thus I have responded in kind.

[/quote]

Well that's constructive of you.
Lucy Alfrir
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#16 - 2011-09-27 18:58:30 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:
[Your Idea makes me want to kick kittens.


Well that's great :D
Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2011-09-27 19:06:07 UTC
You know this issue is the easiest to fix ever, if you dont like macro's leave them alone, if you have issues finding people that feel like interacting, belts arent the right place, go to lowsec, nullsec, wormholes ETC there is plenty of people to interact with there and leave the macros to mine in peace, i mean i hate them, but i can ignore them.

And if you MUST deal with them and want to get them to react, wardec them, if they react to it they are on-keyboard sometimes, if they never do and keep mining through it, they are hardcore macros and kill them all and feel better about yourself/have a field day (i do when i find people that dumb)

But back to the main topic, of the ways to stop macros that is the WORST i have EVER heard, and ive heard hundreds of ideas on this very issue, so i suppose you DID manage to get an achievment, if not the one you were looking for.

Realistically make an addon to the client that activates when you get in a mining ship such as hulk or mackinaw that records mouse click locations, if they are consistently identical, log them off, boom majority of macros are crippled. and if they AFK mine, thats alright because some people DO have stuff to do IRL which in my experience is usually what people do when AFK mining.
Lucy Alfrir
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#18 - 2011-09-27 19:37:33 UTC
Seraph Cruoris wrote:
Lucy Alfrir wrote:
[Well I don't like people playing afk, that's not playing.....



you lost all your credibility there. so its not a gameplay issue its an issue you have with how people play their games? the idea had some virtues but honestly if its simply cause you dont like afk-ers or people who mine while they study/do whatever then simply pew pew...thing is your idea can become abusive and intrusive in other people's games. its one thing to fight for their lives, its one thing to evade a camp, its another to always be hammered with an anti-virus mini game...what are the restrictions? and no concord actions? so its essentially ticking time bomb for anyone from high sec to null...with 0 repercussions? can i list anymore reasons why this is a bad idea?...


Always be hammered? surely that'd take an army of virus injectors.

I'm not suggesting that this should be often successful in it's full regard, destruction of the miner's ship would happen no more than 10% of the time they failed to respond to the reCaptcha in time, so it shouldn't become a career for people, just an amusing pastime.

Equally I'm not suggesting no repercussions, the miner's corp would get aggro on the virus injector, which should last let's say an hour, so when the pirate comes back to see what, if any damage they've done a decent player can be sat there waiting to kill them. I spose a sec status change wouldn't be out of the question either. But a full CONCORD response like this is a gank would be too much.

Seraph Cruoris wrote:

rather have CCP put a small afk timer on the side of the player's name. then just pew pew and get your easy kill rather than put something that will see more abuse than the skill-rewire proposal i remember reading a few days ago...the later being game breaking and yours treading that fine line too...


But my suggestion is ingame and player driven, it's about making the game more intereactive, giving people more things to do, and trying to stop the bots. Your suggestion breaks immersion.

Seraph Cruoris wrote:

edit: i like the theme of the idea but not its desired implementation....has a similar feel to something i had suggested for hacking but not like this...nowhere near like this...


I don't think you understand my suggested implementation, but I'm now piqued by this other suggestion of yours, I'll will search the forums.
Lucy Alfrir
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#19 - 2011-09-27 19:47:40 UTC
Solinuas wrote:
You know this issue is the easiest to fix ever, if you dont like macro's leave them alone, if you have issues finding people that feel like interacting, belts arent the right place, go to lowsec, nullsec, wormholes ETC there is plenty of people to interact with there and leave the macros to mine in peace, i mean i hate them, but i can ignore them.


You don't hate them, you dislike them, if you hated them you'd feel compelled to do something.

and yeah I do find people to intereact with but firstly it bothers me that there are people who don't, and I suspect that they are mostly bots, secondly when you're a newb nullsec and wormholes are just too damn dangerous, even lowsec has been costing me a bunch.

Solinuas wrote:

And if you MUST deal with them and want to get them to react, wardec them, if they react to it they are on-keyboard sometimes, if they never do and keep mining through it, they are hardcore macros and kill them all and feel better about yourself/have a field day (i do when i find people that dumb)


That's a good idea, I will do that.

Solinuas wrote:

But back to the main topic, of the ways to stop macros that is the WORST i have EVER heard, and ive heard hundreds of ideas on this very issue, so i suppose you DID manage to get an achievment, if not the one you were looking for.

Realistically make an addon to the client that activates when you get in a mining ship such as hulk or mackinaw that records mouse click locations, if they are consistently identical, log them off, boom majority of macros are crippled. and if they AFK mine, thats alright because some people DO have stuff to do IRL which in my experience is usually what people do when AFK mining.


Firstly that's an out of game solution, not an ingame one, I think ingame solutions are better, it's not just about stopping botminers it's about making the game more fun for the rest of us at the expense of botminers.

Secondly you might think AFK mining is ok, but I don't, it seems to me an unreasonable way to make money for your alt, and whilst I don't want to stop the practice dead in it's tracks, I do want to make it a potentially more risky business. Yeah you can AFK mine if you like, but I'd like to be able to play with you if you do so. Maybe this is totally unreasonable, maybe people should be able to sit their ignoring the rest of us making ISK by the bucket load unless we can afford a gank ship, but I don't like it.
Insane Randomness
Stellar Pilgrimage
#20 - 2011-09-27 22:07:54 UTC
Lucy Alfrir wrote:
Aqriue wrote:
Lucy Alfrir wrote:

I hate miners, I specially hate afk miners and bot/macro miners, I want to do something about it.

I expect this kind of behavior would be similar to stealing from a can, give the miner's corp aggro against you, but no CONCORD sanction.

So what do people think?



Thoughts...lets see...what comes to mind...

That you are a *****. That you want unlimited action to do what you want, without repercussions of CONCORD intervention cause you don't like loosing to such an easy instant response to aggression that results in you loosing. That you don't like people playing your game (ship combat), nor do you like playing their game (brain dead mining). That you do not understand, without someone mining pixel rocks there wouldn't be a supply of material to create ships and without you they woudn't have an income source as well as traders not profiting off either of you (its a circle reach around jerk, goes both ways). That you don't like a defenseless ship, but would glady do anything to destroy a ship that is prone to exploding because its so easy (shooting hulks is like playing a broken arcade game, feel entitled to win even though you cannot loose which equal no challenge). That you think you are Judge Dread and get to wear a Batcowl in front of your monitor while rocking to "Touch" that you feel empowered to decide that a characters with the same Name1-Name5 sitting in the same belt is a macrobot, but because mining is stupidly boring you don't need a program to alt-tab while cycling through them but who cares, that guy is entitled to play EVE how he wants even if its a second job and the only thing you really can do is send in a petition to let the GM's deal with it (cause they are paid to do that) or you can gank them. That the simplest way to deal with a miner is to either gank the hell out of them or...get this its so hilariously stupid...you can avoid belts by not warping to them.

Did I miss anything?


Wow I don't think I should be replying to you you sound like a dangerous lunatic. ;)

I'm not claiming that all afk miners are bots, I dislike afk miners as much as bots. I also dislike mission runners, this is an mmo people should be intereacting with each other, not watching the telly or reading a book, all I'm trying to do is make the least intereactive players (miners) be occasionally forced to pay attention. As for the mission runners, well we can ninja salvage them. ;D

Ganking... well yes, I will gank miners, but my I'm only 2 months old, I haven't got the gunnery/ships skills for that, and in highsec it's an expensive game, I want to be able to hurt (intereact) with miners both cheaply in highsec and without the months of training necessary for highsec ganks.

Mining supports the economy... people always say this when I say I hate miners... Firstly there's recycling which makes minerals just as much as mining, and secondly I'm not stopping mining, just making it a bit more dangerous/intereactive.

Finally I don't want to avoid the miners I want to play with them. At the moment they just sit there like lumps of dough


So? Go play with the real targets in low sec or null sec then newb, thats actually a challenge. Hell, try can looting occassionaly, I think you'd be amazed at how many players would fight back.

Ninja looting in missions. Right. I'll let you deal with the rats then while I find a different agent which is now, thanks too CCP, five jumps away, and just as high of quality.

Low sec and null sec isn't dangerous, I've been there several times. Even wormholes aren't half dangerous. The first time I went to null sec, I flew there for a whole month before I lost a ship. It's easy to fly there without losing ships, it's just that most people don't know that, or don't use the largest muscle in their body. Don't like fighting people, but live in a wormhole? Then GTFO when a pirate or PvPer shows it's face, and find a different hole. It's not tough to do, and you get a fresh supply of sleepers. Same as null and low, just stay away. Let people know that, you might see them there a lot more.

And in case you didn't know, miners interact with idiots like you ever day. So much that there is a term for it: suicide ganking. All it takes is a destroyer and a bunch of smartbombs. Can't cost more than 3mil for the entire thing. Shut up, go buy one, and go nuts.
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